Sailing around the world on a budget

[Sea Change]

I briefly experimented with twin genoas on the same foil. Boat took off like a rocket when we hit the wind acceleration zone at the top of Grand Canaria .
I chickened out of using it for the crossing, it just seemed a bit risky to put that much force on a stay that was designed to take only one sail.

The new boat has a furling staysail. I quite fancy picking up a suitably sized genoa to fly on it, allowing twin furling headsails on their own stays. No more looking over your shoulder at approaching squalls and wondering if you need to reef.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I briefly experimented with twin genoas on the same foil. Boat took off like a rocket when we hit the wind acceleration zone at the top of Grand Canaria .
I chickened out of using it for the crossing, it just seemed a bit risky to put that much force on a stay that was designed to take only one sail.

The new boat has a furling staysail. I quite fancy picking up a suitably sized genoa to fly on it, allowing twin furling headsails on their own stays. No more looking over your shoulder at approaching squalls and wondering if you need to reef.

Understood. We have a separate inner forestay that the second genoa is hanked onto. I added the forestay especially for the described scenario.

 

[Stemar]

I got some very funny looks in Las Palmas from the posh yotties when I was experimenting with my poling out idea...

I haven't forgotten bringing our first boat, a Snapdragon 24, home after buying her. It was pretty much a dead run up the western Solent, and we were goose-winged, poled out genoa and main on a preventer, going very nicely. At the same time, there was a 40-something deck saloon job going the same way, main not far enough out and the genoa flapping lazily, shielded by the main. They got past us, but it took them from Hampstead Ledge to Gurnard to do it. That was very satisfying on a new to us tubby little bilge keeler.

 

[steve yates]

That was probably the case with autopilots from 20 years ago (many of which will still be installed on boats) - and probably most tiller pilots.
BUT a decent modern autopilot with below deck ram and gyro compass will be massively better than any windvane in all conditions under sail (as well as under motor when a vane is useless). The better ones are now better than even experienced human helms, hence why many racing rules banned autopilot use except for single or two handed boats. And using wind vanes at the top of the mast, they don’t suffer the issues of vanes losing wind speed in large wave troughs. (And that is before adding the really high tech stuff that top racing systems now have.)
Combined with modern twin rudder designs, autopilots are regularly used in strong winds on cruising boats, and at extreme speeds 7x24 in short handed racing boats.
Even just under a decade ago on the ARC I did the percentage of autopilot failures was lower than the percentage of wind vane failures (and of course 100% of the boats with vanes also had autopilots - which they then reverted to). But clearly carrying spares for cross ocean voyages is good (an entire duplicate system may be cheaper than adding a vane system).
So to my mind, for boats above about 10m a wind vane was a great technology for last century, but like a sextant or RDF now made redundant by more modern systems (not just the autopilots themselves, but solar and hydro generation systems).
</controversial>

And yet, regardless of how great they have become, they are utterly reliant on having electricty, and thus always have a fundamentally fatal flaw. Its hardly beyond countenance that a boat at sea for a month or more could lose its batteries.
Like losing your rig, hardly expected but always a possibility, hence why bolt cutters or similar are carried.
And the price of modern below decks autohelms for 40-50 ft boats, with all the gubbins to make them so amazing can surely can’t be much cheaper, if not even a bit dearer, than a wind vane?
I would sooner cross without a liferaft than a windvane myself.

 

[Sea Change]

Complete electrical failure isn't very common. I don't think I've met anybody who this has happened to.

On my own boat I have two independent systems, a spare battery in storage, and various means of charging. I have the tools and spares to jury rig a temporary setup.

For me to lose all electrical power, I would have to have swamped the boat, and I don't think the method of steering is likely to be the biggest problem I'm facing.

I like windvanes. I have owned two, I used one extensively on the only ocean crossing I've done. But I don't believe that it's essential to carry one.

On the current boat, the windvane would represent a significant compromise to daily use of the boat (no davits!). I haven't made any decisions yet but I'm inclined towards not fitting it, and instead ensuring that the autopilot is in top condition with the necessary spares.

 

[dunedin]

And yet, regardless of how great they have become, they are utterly reliant on having electricty, and thus always have a fundamentally fatal flaw. Its hardly beyond countenance that a boat at sea for a month or more could lose its batteries.
Like losing your rig, hardly expected but always a possibility, hence why bolt cutters or similar are carried.
And the price of modern below decks autohelms for 40-50 ft boats, with all the gubbins to make them so amazing can surely can’t be much cheaper, if not even a bit dearer, than a wind vane?
I would sooner cross without a liferaft than a windvane myself.

Again, each to their own - but you would very much be in the minority of ocean crossers.
I can’t immediately find the results of the surveys for more recent years, but even 15 years ago according to the ARC survey only 32 boats reported having wind vanes, versus 182 boats with autopilots.
And the satisfaction rating of the autopilots, even then with 2 generation older versions (and by the comments still many wheel pilots, which are much less effective) was much higher than the satisfaction rating with wind vanes - see page 2 https://windpilot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ARC-survey-pt-1.pdf

Yes autopilots are reliant on electricity. But most ocean crossing boats have at least 3 probably 4 largely independent sources of power generation - alternator, generator, solar and hydro. Loss of all power wasn’t mentioned as one of the experienced failures.
And if key systems failed, it would be relatively simple to connect one power supply (eg hydro) to a single battery and power the autopilot from that. More options than if the vane structure failed, which happened to a couple of boats on our ARC (they switched to electronic autopilot).

And most could ultimately hand steer if necessary,

No ARC boats went without a liferaft.

 

[robmcg]

Using ARC data is a little bit skewed as the ARC is now dominated by larger, predominantly newer boats which aren't really suited to windvanes for reasons already discussed, hence the relatively low number of vanes represented.
Modern autopilots are indeed pretty reliable but even the best consume lots of amps in bigger seas. For the average monohull with moderate solar square footage and no generator would struggle to keep up with the electrical demand if a few overcast days were encountered .

 

[john_morris_uk]

Complete electrical failure isn't very common. I don't think I've met anybody who this has happened to.

On my own boat I have two independent systems, a spare battery in storage, and various means of charging. I have the tools and spares to jury rig a temporary setup.

For me to lose all electrical power, I would have to have swamped the boat, and I don't think the method of steering is likely to be the biggest problem I'm facing.

I like windvanes. I have owned two, I used one extensively on the only ocean crossing I've done. But I don't believe that it's essential to carry one.

On the current boat, the windvane would represent a significant compromise to daily use of the boat (no davits!). I haven't made any decisions yet but I'm inclined towards not fitting it, and instead ensuring that the autopilot is in top condition with the necessary spares.

I guess it al depends on the boat. We have davits and a Hydrovane. In fact the Hydrovane is very convenient to hang onto when boarding from the dinghy.

I’ll standby for the ‘most expensive grab rail’ comments.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Complete electrical failure isn't very common. I don't think I've met anybody who this has happened to.

On my own boat I have two independent systems, a spare battery in storage, and various means of charging. I have the tools and spares to jury rig a temporary setup.

For me to lose all electrical power, I would have to have swamped the boat, and I don't think the method of steering is likely to be the biggest problem I'm facing.

I like windvanes. I have owned two, I used one extensively on the only ocean crossing I've done. But I don't believe that it's essential to carry one.

On the current boat, the windvane would represent a significant compromise to daily use of the boat (no davits!). I haven't made any decisions yet but I'm inclined towards not fitting it, and instead ensuring that the autopilot is in top condition with the necessary spares.

I guess it al depends on the boat. We have davits and a Hydrovane. In fact the Hydrovane is very convenient to hang onto when boarding from the dinghy.
I’ll standby for the ‘most expensive grab rail’ comments

 

[Roberto]

Again, each to their own - but you would very much be in the minority of ocean crossers.
I can’t immediately find the results of the surveys for more recent years, but even 15 years ago according to the ARC survey only 32 boats reported having wind vanes, versus 182 boats with autopilots.

I do not think an ARC survey bears a lot of significance (nor does the vast majority of people having long range sailing experience outside the ARC). Imho the survey reflects what happens with the ARC: many boats equip themselves by checking all the boxes in the organizer list, plus add watermakers/lithium/starlink and whatever else deemed as ''essential'' by the latest magazine reviews, remining short of time to learn and thoroughly test the whole lot. When they leave, it'a lot easier to press ''Auto/Stdby'' than begin practicing with a wind steering system, so ''it does not work''. On arrival new magazine articles about what worked and what did not.
Friends made a similar rally, they left Europe with wind steering and an excellent autopilot, got to the Caribbean within the rally schedule without having used the wind steering once. From there they eventually circumnavigated by themselves and the windpilot did 90% of the steering, go figure.
IMHO a lot better to concentrate one's efforts into thinking about the way one wishes to sail than copy what other have done, there will always be the best and the worst.
BTW I have the three, wind steering, a powerful autopilot (and of course the liferaft)

 

[Supertramp]

ARC is interesting as it shows trends and blows away a lot of myths. But my impression is that many if not most doing it are not on a low budget.

I would want duplication and back up for steering and a self steering system offering a separate rudder would be well up my list.

I guess it al depends on the boat. We have davits and a Hydrovane. In fact the Hydrovane is very convenient to hang onto when boarding from the dinghy.
I’ll standby for the ‘most expensive grab rail’ comments

That's exactly what I would choose!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I do not think an ARC survey bears a lot of significance (nor does the vast majority of people having long range sailing experience outside the ARC). Imho the survey reflects what happens with the ARC: many boats equip themselves by checking all the boxes in the organizer list, plus add watermakers/lithium/starlink and whatever else deemed as ''essential'' by the latest magazine reviews, remining short of time to learn and thoroughly test the whole lot. When they leave, it'a lot easier to press ''Auto/Stdby'' than begin practicing with a wind steering system, so ''it does not work''. On arrival new magazine articles about what worked and what did not.
Friends made a similar rally, they left Europe with wind steering and an excellent autopilot, got to the Caribbean within the rally schedule without having used the wind steering once. From there they eventually circumnavigated by themselves and the windpilot did 90% of the steering, go figure.
IMHO a lot better to concentrate one's efforts into thinking about the way one wishes to sail than copy what other have done, there will always be the best and the worst.
BTW I have the three, wind steering, a powerful autopilot (and of course the liferaft)

Thd ARC has almost no relevance to the discussion about sailing on a budget. From its original concept of encouraging families to sail across the Atlantic as a sort of cruise in company, it’s grown into something very different. Many ARC boats have paying ‘guests’ onboard and the vast majority of the others are in the 50 foot plus range. We looked at joining (very briefly), but at 39 foot we would’ve been the second smallest boat in the year we crossed.

In addition to all this, the ARC specifies a huge amount of gear that you simply must have to comply with their conditions of entry. Therefore a survey of what boats have equipped themselves with isn’t really a true representation of ocean sailing on a budget. Certainly all the ARC sailors that we’ve met seem to be very well off compared to many sailors.

 

[Sea Change]

I guess it al depends on the boat. We have davits and a Hydrovane. In fact the Hydrovane is very convenient to hang onto when boarding from the dinghy.

I’ll standby for the ‘most expensive grab rail’ comments.

Correct. On a transom stern it's feasible to have both. Your boat is in this regard very similar to the one we crossed in. If I hadn't had the Hydrovane, I could have mounted the davits higher, which would have made it much easier to climb up and down the stern ladder. So whilst I made it work, it was a compromise.

Now we have one of these fancy sugar scoop thingies, which I always derided to some extent. But now that we have one I can see why they have become ubiquitous. It's our back yard. We shower there, we chop up coconuts, gut fish, swill out dirty pans, all of it without introducing any mess in to the cockpit. The floor opens up to reveal a huge locker where all the snorkeling and fishing gear lives. Dinghy access is easier, handing over heavy shopping bags is a doddle. It's made a huge difference to everyday life.

The only real downside is that trying to fit a windvane on to this type of stern would be challenging. I'm sure it could be done. But it would be a bit of a headache.

I will give it some thought closer to the time, but for the next year or two I have zero need for a windvane and zero desire to compromise the livability of the boat.

 

[Sea Change]

ARC is interesting as it shows trends and blows away a lot of myths. But my impression is that many if not most doing it are not on a low budget.

Definitely. It's £2k to join, that was not small change to us.
I think the main attraction is the psuedo competitive element (it's not a trace, but it is a bunch of boats going the same way at the same time ).
I don't have a competitive bone in my body so I didn't see the appeal there. I wanted to leave when I wanted, on my own terms, not according to somebody's schedule. And personally I think the ARC leaves too early, before the trades are fully established.

I would want duplication and back up for steering and a self steering system offering a separate rudder would be well up my list.

A while back I saw a YouTube video from a couple who lost their rudder in the Pacific. They spent days trying different jury rig solutions. The thing that really struck me was that their boat lacked a suitably located strong point on the stern. They were lashing to the boarding ladder, pushpit, etc, none of which was designed for these loads or really in the right place.

If I didn't have a windvane to act as a backup rudder, I would seriously consider packing a couple of these:
Flowtech 50.0MM OD ALUMINIUM 1-TUBE HALVES GROUP4
For very little money you could have these fitted to your stern ready to accept a rudimentary emergency rudder. Just a thought.

 

[Roberto]

Correct. On a transom stern it's feasible to have both. Your boat is in this regard very similar to the one we crossed in. If I hadn't had the Hydrovane, I could have mounted the davits higher, which would have made it much easier to climb up and down the stern ladder. So whilst I made it work, it was a compromise.

Now we have one of these fancy sugar scoop thingies, which I always derided to some extent. But now that we have one I can see why they have become ubiquitous. It's our back yard. We shower there, we chop up coconuts, gut fish, swill out dirty pans, all of it without introducing any mess in to the cockpit. The floor opens up to reveal a huge locker where all the snorkeling and fishing gear lives. Dinghy access is easier, handing over heavy shopping bags is a doddle. It's made a huge difference to everyday life.

The only real downside is that trying to fit a windvane on to this type of stern would be challenging. I'm sure it could be done. But it would be a bit of a headache.

I will give it some thought closer to the time, but for the next year or two I have zero need for a windvane and zero desire to compromise the livability of the boat.

I understand the Hydrovane equips a lot o British boats so it is often taken as reference for a wind steering system,
there are other models though I have a Windpilot (pendulum type, no auxiliary rudder) which can be fitted or removed in a matter of minutes, when off there are simply two unobtrusive metal semi-disks left on the transom. When not sailing long distances I take it off and can use the bathing ladder, hoist the dinghy with the stern gantry, etc basically 100% as if there was no wind steering whatsoever. The folded WP occupies the samne space as the deflated dinghy. When sailing long distances the deflated dinghy goes into a stern locker and two bolts later the WP is ready to do its job. In case of need of going in the water (fishing gear around the propeller for example) I use an emergency ladder fitted to the aft side.

 

[DownWest]

Did a few bits and pieces on a 65ft ketch. Interestingly, it had been designed by the guy who designed Port Grimauld and he didn't offer the design to anybody else, despite interest.
It had a rather antiquated wheel electronic AP from the US, and while it worked, I could not find any support.. But they had the basic bits for a windvane. It had a vane on a bracket off the stern with a tube down to a quite small paddle below the surface. There was a long SS A frame (narrow) that clamped onto the inboard rudder and the paddle tube went through the end of the frame and turned the rudder via the A frame. Looked a bit crude after working on more conventional systems.
Anyway , I adapted it and they set off the Azores.. Reported back that it worked very well. Then set off for the Algarve, where they still are.

 

[BobnLesley]

And yet, regardless of how great they have become, they are utterly reliant on having electricity, and thus always have a fundamentally fatal flaw.

That too is a consideration, especially for smaller vessels with limited space for solar panels. Engine use on our passages using the wind vane steering consisted of firing it up for an hour just to check it still worked when we were 24/36 hours from our destination, while for those using autohelms 4-5 or more hours in every twenty four was a regular thing.
We met a US flagged boat in St Martin - to be fair it was running a deep freeze and air conditioning on top of their autohelm - which burned through 1200 litres of diesel while 'sailing' there from North Carolina.

 

[lustyd]

I think most boats on ocean crossing will burn more electricity making water in an hour than the autohelm would use on the whole crossing. I know showers aren’t for everyone, but they certainly are more popular than they used to be.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think most boats on ocean crossing will burn more electricity making water in an hour than the autohelm would use on the whole crossing. I know showers aren’t for everyone, but they certainly are more popular than they used to be.

Swing the lamp…

I remember doing ocean crossings where the only washing of my body was done with a bucket of sea water poured over me while sitting on the deck. Once in a downpour in a squall I did rush for my shampoo and try and wash with freshwater sitting under the end of the boom where the water was running off. But in the finest tradition as soon as I got soaped up the rain stopped and I was left covered in lather and needing to rinse off with salt water yet again.

PS Our watermaker makes 45 litres.hour and uses about 9 amps. Used for an hour a day? The autopilot uses far more power over 24 hours. It’s the latest Raymarine one too.

 

[Sea Change]

I understand the Hydrovane equips a lot o British boats so it is often taken as reference for a wind steering system,
there are other models though I have a Windpilot (pendulum type, no auxiliary rudder) which can be fitted or removed in a matter of minutes, when off there are simply two unobtrusive metal semi-disks left on the transom. When not sailing long distances I take it off and can use the bathing ladder, hoist the dinghy with the stern gantry, etc basically 100% as if there was no wind steering whatsoever. The folded WP occupies the samne space as the deflated dinghy. When sailing long distances the deflated dinghy goes into a stern locker and two bolts later the WP is ready to do its job. In case of need of going in the water (fishing gear around the propeller for example) I use an emergency ladder fitted to the aft side.

The Hebridean (see up thread) has a single mounting point and can be removed in seconds. Very clever.