dur
Member
Just listen to the RNLI chap eh. After all he is the one who has to put his life at risk mucking about trying to find you on your mobile phone.
Safety Without Radio
- Thread starter Das_Boot
- Start date
Das_Boot
New member
If he has to find me on my mobile I should not have gone to sea in the first place. You should allways know where you are, you then tell the person whose help you are asking where you are. If you see a helicopter that looks lost let off a flare. If you are unable to do any of these my bet is you wont be able to talk on the radio.
Mirelle
N/A
Been there, done that thing
Did course, got licence, bought licence, fitted squawk box, toted it around for years, got fed up with it.
Quite pointless. The horrid fascination is that we can all play at being professionals, which we are not.
How many silly shouts do lifeboats get called out on each year that they were not called out on when yots did not have VHF?
Did course, got licence, bought licence, fitted squawk box, toted it around for years, got fed up with it.
Quite pointless. The horrid fascination is that we can all play at being professionals, which we are not.
How many silly shouts do lifeboats get called out on each year that they were not called out on when yots did not have VHF?
Das_Boot
New member
Re: Been there, done that thing
I was conscripted into the signal corp when I was young it gave me a life long distaste for radio (not broadcast bbc etc). I am trying not to let it cloud my judgment but for the life of me cannot find any redeaming features. If I have to I will suffer one but suffer is the word.
I was conscripted into the signal corp when I was young it gave me a life long distaste for radio (not broadcast bbc etc). I am trying not to let it cloud my judgment but for the life of me cannot find any redeaming features. If I have to I will suffer one but suffer is the word.
Alastairdent
New member
[ QUOTE ]
There is no more requirement to carry a radio than there is to have life jackets on board ...
It is up to the individual to equip the boat to his/her own standards.
Although you dont NEED a VHF, they can be very useful.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not what my insurance company says.
I believe it is a requirement to at least carry 3rd party insurance.
There is no more requirement to carry a radio than there is to have life jackets on board ...
It is up to the individual to equip the boat to his/her own standards.
Although you dont NEED a VHF, they can be very useful.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not what my insurance company says.
I believe it is a requirement to at least carry 3rd party insurance.
Mirelle
N/A
Exactly my position
I understand that you reproach yourself, but, with great respect, I think you need not do so. Given that your acquaintance was unable to give a position, you would not have known where to look, either, and a normal set would give no D/F capability.
Really, yachts are not lifeboats; we don't have the equipment or the skills and whilst we might, conceivably, save a life, frankly we are more likely to do so when someone falls out of a tender in a river than at sea, where, if the volunteer and professional SAR services cannot get there, we won't.
I understand that you reproach yourself, but, with great respect, I think you need not do so. Given that your acquaintance was unable to give a position, you would not have known where to look, either, and a normal set would give no D/F capability.
Really, yachts are not lifeboats; we don't have the equipment or the skills and whilst we might, conceivably, save a life, frankly we are more likely to do so when someone falls out of a tender in a river than at sea, where, if the volunteer and professional SAR services cannot get there, we won't.
Alastairdent
New member
Another thing. If you don't have VHF, what do you when entering a TSS? On the mouth of the humber it is a requirement to notify the controller.
Mirelle
N/A
With you all the way
I never had to suffer that, but I have spent enough time on ships bridges with the d... thing chattering away (very often with silly taunts or even racial abuse, on Ch 16, as between merchant ships away from coasts - let us not pretend that all junior officers are as pure as the driven snow!) to develop a hearty dislike for the thing and when it intrudes on sailing that is unspeakable.
I never had to suffer that, but I have spent enough time on ships bridges with the d... thing chattering away (very often with silly taunts or even racial abuse, on Ch 16, as between merchant ships away from coasts - let us not pretend that all junior officers are as pure as the driven snow!) to develop a hearty dislike for the thing and when it intrudes on sailing that is unspeakable.
Das_Boot
New member
Give them a ring. The number is in the Reeds. There is no requirement for 3rd party that is down to some Marinas not allowing you in if you dont have it.
cliff
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
I think life threatening is pretty last ditch. If I am near enough to the coast for it to be a problem (lee shore) I will more than likely be able to get signal on my mobile. If not I will sit it out as I have done many times. If it is a survival situation I will activate the EPIRB.
[/ QUOTE ] I give up. You cannot sit it out when the depth of water is over 50 fathoms just 10 yards from the shore unless you carry one hell of a lot of chain. Using a mobile will not bring help very quickly - you could be wrecked on the rocks before help arrives . Your insurance (if you have any) will probably refuse to pay out on your loss on the grounds you did not have suitable means of calling for assistance. Remember insurance companies like to wriggle. Your loss could be put down to your own carelessness or even as a deliberate act.
Your original post was little short of a rant because you could not find a training/exam center within 20 miles of your home. Are there that many such centers in South Africa? - I think not!
You were then given the addresses of several such establishments "near" to where you live. You then change tack and put up a new posting debating safety issues arising from not having VHF at all.
If you do not want to obey the law and obtain both a Ships radio licence and an operators licence then don't. It is your choice for the moment and your liberty and property at risk. If you don't want to fit a VHF then don't, at the moment there is no requirement to fit on such on pleasure craft. It is your choice and your vessel and crew that could be put at risk. Loath though I am to say it but if you can afford a boat, radar, epirb etc you can easily afford a vhf and the £50 or so for a Short Range Certificate.
If you are so tight or short of readies I will give you the "cheat sheet" for the short range exam - all the questions and all the answers - no need to take the course - just sit the exam and get your piece of paper. - once done that is it for life! and no more problems with the "authorities"
Eventually, if you need a long range certificate it can be done through a local sailing club or training center or even at night school over the winter.
Enough of this - it is a nice afternoon - I am away for a sail and I will be listening on vhf ch: 16, 11 and 13./forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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I think life threatening is pretty last ditch. If I am near enough to the coast for it to be a problem (lee shore) I will more than likely be able to get signal on my mobile. If not I will sit it out as I have done many times. If it is a survival situation I will activate the EPIRB.
[/ QUOTE ] I give up. You cannot sit it out when the depth of water is over 50 fathoms just 10 yards from the shore unless you carry one hell of a lot of chain. Using a mobile will not bring help very quickly - you could be wrecked on the rocks before help arrives . Your insurance (if you have any) will probably refuse to pay out on your loss on the grounds you did not have suitable means of calling for assistance. Remember insurance companies like to wriggle. Your loss could be put down to your own carelessness or even as a deliberate act.
Your original post was little short of a rant because you could not find a training/exam center within 20 miles of your home. Are there that many such centers in South Africa? - I think not!
You were then given the addresses of several such establishments "near" to where you live. You then change tack and put up a new posting debating safety issues arising from not having VHF at all.
If you do not want to obey the law and obtain both a Ships radio licence and an operators licence then don't. It is your choice for the moment and your liberty and property at risk. If you don't want to fit a VHF then don't, at the moment there is no requirement to fit on such on pleasure craft. It is your choice and your vessel and crew that could be put at risk. Loath though I am to say it but if you can afford a boat, radar, epirb etc you can easily afford a vhf and the £50 or so for a Short Range Certificate.
If you are so tight or short of readies I will give you the "cheat sheet" for the short range exam - all the questions and all the answers - no need to take the course - just sit the exam and get your piece of paper. - once done that is it for life! and no more problems with the "authorities"
Eventually, if you need a long range certificate it can be done through a local sailing club or training center or even at night school over the winter.
Enough of this - it is a nice afternoon - I am away for a sail and I will be listening on vhf ch: 16, 11 and 13./forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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Mirelle
N/A
Exactly. Also works for Thames Barrier, though frankly they don't seem too bothered if you leave them in peace.
Mike_Martin
New member
Do you have their phone number?
I'm sure they will have arrangements for non-radio vessels.
Mike
I'm sure they will have arrangements for non-radio vessels.
Mike
Das_Boot
New member
Cliff I did not go to this thread to re-hash the license issue I wanted to leave that behind. However the issue of safety came up in that thread and I thought it deserved a separate debate. I did not wish to mix the two up as the two issues have completly different ramifications and outcomes. If you check back to the license thread you will see that I stated there that the South African authoritys are much worse than here regarding all of the issues. It is compulsory there to have a Yacht Master (skippers) or relevent boat license before you can leave a marina. I wonder if that should not be a requirement in England but that is a separate issue.
broadcaster
New member
Re: Been there, done that thing
[ QUOTE ]
How many silly shouts do lifeboats get called out on each year that they were not called out on when yots did not have VHF?
[/ QUOTE ]
The debate about why the lifeboat is called out has nothing to do with a VHF, if people think they need help they would use the mobile anyway and make it even harder for the the lifeboats to deal with. The real question is how many people have been saved as a result of a VHF and if you listen to the reports, the answer is a lot.
What the VHF has done is also prevent false launches or calls for assistance. We lost our engine last year and as there was no wind we started drifting towards a tanker fuelling station. As I knew other people might raise the alarm, I contacted the coast guard to let them know that we had everything under control and that we didn't need immediate help. Fortunately another yacht gave us a tow and during this time we could keep the CG updated to avoid any action being taken which was not necessary. When we got back, we notified the CG and with a little communication could have saved a wasted call out.
Just because you've got a VHF doesn't mean you have to have it on all the time, but it can be very useful. I suppose you carried life jackets, never fell in and have now got fed up with them.
Your not a professional and nor am I, so I listen to what the ex-RNLI guy said and what the Coastguard say as they have more experience than both of us.
[ QUOTE ]
How many silly shouts do lifeboats get called out on each year that they were not called out on when yots did not have VHF?
[/ QUOTE ]
The debate about why the lifeboat is called out has nothing to do with a VHF, if people think they need help they would use the mobile anyway and make it even harder for the the lifeboats to deal with. The real question is how many people have been saved as a result of a VHF and if you listen to the reports, the answer is a lot.
What the VHF has done is also prevent false launches or calls for assistance. We lost our engine last year and as there was no wind we started drifting towards a tanker fuelling station. As I knew other people might raise the alarm, I contacted the coast guard to let them know that we had everything under control and that we didn't need immediate help. Fortunately another yacht gave us a tow and during this time we could keep the CG updated to avoid any action being taken which was not necessary. When we got back, we notified the CG and with a little communication could have saved a wasted call out.
Just because you've got a VHF doesn't mean you have to have it on all the time, but it can be very useful. I suppose you carried life jackets, never fell in and have now got fed up with them.
Your not a professional and nor am I, so I listen to what the ex-RNLI guy said and what the Coastguard say as they have more experience than both of us.
Alastairdent
New member
Re: Been there, done that thing
Insurance is a legal requirement if you also go on BW waters - which includes the Ouse and the Trent near me. So, yup, I have to have insurance, and they say have a VHF.
I tried to phone Grimsby fish dock using the number in Reeds - it was wrong. Raised them on VHF immediately. There are no wrong numbers with VHF.
I'll keep my cheap VHF thanks very much. And my lifejackets, bilge pumps, engine spares, etc.
Insurance is a legal requirement if you also go on BW waters - which includes the Ouse and the Trent near me. So, yup, I have to have insurance, and they say have a VHF.
I tried to phone Grimsby fish dock using the number in Reeds - it was wrong. Raised them on VHF immediately. There are no wrong numbers with VHF.
I'll keep my cheap VHF thanks very much. And my lifejackets, bilge pumps, engine spares, etc.
broadcaster
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Give them a ring. The number is in the Reeds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not a good suggestion, sometimes they need to call you back. Do you expect them to call your mobile and if they need to call you several times I'm sure they would be pretty annoyed. It takes a few seconds to dial and then a few more for the mobiles to connect as well, so it would be frustrating for them if they are dealing with a lot of traffic.
In those situations you also need to listen to know what the other traffic is upto and in some cases it requires inter ship communications. Who is going to keep track of all the phone numbers.
It is also mandatory to keep a listening watch when entering some ports, how do you do that.
Just accept that you need a VHF even if you don't like it. You don't have to have it on all the time anyway if it bothers you.
Give them a ring. The number is in the Reeds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not a good suggestion, sometimes they need to call you back. Do you expect them to call your mobile and if they need to call you several times I'm sure they would be pretty annoyed. It takes a few seconds to dial and then a few more for the mobiles to connect as well, so it would be frustrating for them if they are dealing with a lot of traffic.
In those situations you also need to listen to know what the other traffic is upto and in some cases it requires inter ship communications. Who is going to keep track of all the phone numbers.
It is also mandatory to keep a listening watch when entering some ports, how do you do that.
Just accept that you need a VHF even if you don't like it. You don't have to have it on all the time anyway if it bothers you.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Been there, done that thing
[ QUOTE ]
Your not a professional and nor am I, so I listen to what the ex-RNLI guy said and what the Coastguard say as they have more experience than both of us.
[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, but I cringe whenever I hear the "Listen to the professionals, they know better than you do" argument. Most amateurs in any discipline take their hobbies very seriously and are often far better at the subject than 80% of those who do it for a living. Not surprising, really, because they love the subject and it is a labour of love. Remember that many, if not most, yachtsmen are highly trained professionals in other fields - sometimes closely allied fields, such as aviation.
[ QUOTE ]
Your not a professional and nor am I, so I listen to what the ex-RNLI guy said and what the Coastguard say as they have more experience than both of us.
[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, but I cringe whenever I hear the "Listen to the professionals, they know better than you do" argument. Most amateurs in any discipline take their hobbies very seriously and are often far better at the subject than 80% of those who do it for a living. Not surprising, really, because they love the subject and it is a labour of love. Remember that many, if not most, yachtsmen are highly trained professionals in other fields - sometimes closely allied fields, such as aviation.
Das_Boot
New member
Re: Been there, done that thing
Dont you think that the issue is how to communicate your distress.
Why did you not just phone the CG and tell them Im not in trouble. The issue is not the communication but the means of communication. I believe that the mobile phone is more reliable in less serious situations and in serious situations the EPIRB is more reliable. It sends out a position fix without help it sends out an exact position without human error you dont have to hold it there is no mistake you can get on with other things that might help to save your life. If you just want a chat use the phone.
Dont you think that the issue is how to communicate your distress.
Why did you not just phone the CG and tell them Im not in trouble. The issue is not the communication but the means of communication. I believe that the mobile phone is more reliable in less serious situations and in serious situations the EPIRB is more reliable. It sends out a position fix without help it sends out an exact position without human error you dont have to hold it there is no mistake you can get on with other things that might help to save your life. If you just want a chat use the phone.
broadcaster
New member
Re: Been there, done that thing
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your not a professional and nor am I, so I listen to what the ex-RNLI guy said and what the Coastguard say as they have more experience than both of us.
[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, but I cringe whenever I hear the "Listen to the professionals, they know better than you do" argument. Most amateurs in any discipline take their hobbies very seriously and are often far better at the subject than 80% of those who do it for a living. Not surprising, really, because they love the subject and it is a labour of love. Remember that many, if not most, yachtsmen are highly trained professionals in other fields - sometimes closely allied fields, such as aviation.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think in the case of the RNLI, they do know more about rescue situations and it is not their living. They are also mostly from a boating background which gives them the best of both worlds.
Your probably right that Yachtsmen could be trained in other areas, such as aviation. Those who are trained in aviation would instantly recognise the need for a radio, so this issue wouldn't be a problem for them. However aviation isn't that close to sailing and the problems you could get into to, so it could be a false feeling of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. In this case I am 100% positive that 80% of people involved in marine leisure activities do not know more about potential rescue situations than the RNLI or CG. I think it is a bit of an insult if you really believe that.
Are you really saying you don't think a VHF is a useful bit of kit for a rescue situation and general safety.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your not a professional and nor am I, so I listen to what the ex-RNLI guy said and what the Coastguard say as they have more experience than both of us.
[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, but I cringe whenever I hear the "Listen to the professionals, they know better than you do" argument. Most amateurs in any discipline take their hobbies very seriously and are often far better at the subject than 80% of those who do it for a living. Not surprising, really, because they love the subject and it is a labour of love. Remember that many, if not most, yachtsmen are highly trained professionals in other fields - sometimes closely allied fields, such as aviation.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think in the case of the RNLI, they do know more about rescue situations and it is not their living. They are also mostly from a boating background which gives them the best of both worlds.
Your probably right that Yachtsmen could be trained in other areas, such as aviation. Those who are trained in aviation would instantly recognise the need for a radio, so this issue wouldn't be a problem for them. However aviation isn't that close to sailing and the problems you could get into to, so it could be a false feeling of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. In this case I am 100% positive that 80% of people involved in marine leisure activities do not know more about potential rescue situations than the RNLI or CG. I think it is a bit of an insult if you really believe that.
Are you really saying you don't think a VHF is a useful bit of kit for a rescue situation and general safety.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Been there, done that thing
[ QUOTE ]
Are you really saying you don't think a VHF is a useful bit of kit for a rescue situation and general safety.
[/ QUOTE ]I think that I have made my views perfectly clear throughout these two threads so there is no need to go back over that. And I am not commenting adversly on anything that anyone else has said her but I don't like to base any argument on a person's rank or position. Either their argument holds up to scrutiny or it doesn't - it matters not whether they are an 18 year old novice or a crusty old skipper who's risen to command an aircraft carrier. Plenty of 'important' and apparently 'qualified' people in all walks of life talk a lot of cobblers.
[ QUOTE ]
Are you really saying you don't think a VHF is a useful bit of kit for a rescue situation and general safety.
[/ QUOTE ]I think that I have made my views perfectly clear throughout these two threads so there is no need to go back over that. And I am not commenting adversly on anything that anyone else has said her but I don't like to base any argument on a person's rank or position. Either their argument holds up to scrutiny or it doesn't - it matters not whether they are an 18 year old novice or a crusty old skipper who's risen to command an aircraft carrier. Plenty of 'important' and apparently 'qualified' people in all walks of life talk a lot of cobblers.