Mark-1
Well-known member
Yes, this is true. That doesn't change the point much, and it's a hypothetical point since the people who know reckon this isn't holding up the rescue which would be the only drawback to requesting it.
RYA Safetrx
- Thread starter DanTribe
- Start date
Yes, this is true. That doesn't change the point much, and it's a hypothetical point since the people who know reckon this isn't holding up the rescue which would be the only drawback to requesting it.
smert
Active member
If you are giving position to 3 decimal places, then by the time you have finished, your position has changed (unless you have got yourself stuck on a rock!) and the info you have given is wrong. By the time any external assistance gets to you your position could be massively different from the co-ords given.
lustyd
Well-known member
Of course, by the same token the CG can get a feel for drift better with the extra info which could be helpful if your power dies after the first couple of position updates.
jwilson
Well-known member
Before GPS when reporting my position (by SSB to ocean race organisers) I would only give full degrees and minutes. Then GPS started to come in for people with lots of money and you could tell listening to the daily position reports which boats had GPS and would give two extra digits for lat and long.
On my present boat two of my fixed GPSs almost always give the third digit differently - the receivers are about two or three metres apart.
On my present boat two of my fixed GPSs almost always give the third digit differently - the receivers are about two or three metres apart.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Reciting a full position from a GPS source adds less than 10 seconds to a Mayday call. It is irrelevant complaining about the decimal degrees being stated. Same for reciting MMSI and Call Sign. Anyone who is prepared has a VHF Mayday alert pro forma in place ready to use; if you don't, you are a fool. It is not an time issue reciting the data.
Mark-1
Well-known member
In the Mayday I refer to above the poor guy on the radio had just seen a horrific injury. He was steering and also trying to get the main down. The casualty was on the saloon floor in front of the GPS.
He'd already given a pin point position - (he was near a buoy or other feature IIRC). The last thing he needed was to drop everything, go below, stand over his injured buddy and read out numbers. I don't know how long it took him but it wasn't ten seconds. It was an eternity to me and it was certainly an eternity to him.
It might be the wrong thing to do, but on that day, with that situation it would have been better to say "Help is on it's way. When you get yourself sorted can you give us your position again in a different format of your choice. There's no rush, but we want to double check the the helicopter is going to the right place.". I know differently now, but at time I felt they wanted a position from the GPS in a convenient format purely for a form they had in front of them, and a lot of the other questions felt like he was filling in a form as well. It was clear the casualty felt the same. (As I say, I know differently now.)
I'm sure in most incidents that involve yachts it's far more convenient to read from the GPS, but then even yachtsmen aren't always in yachts, sometimes we're in the tender or paddleboarding.
He'd already given a pin point position - (he was near a buoy or other feature IIRC). The last thing he needed was to drop everything, go below, stand over his injured buddy and read out numbers. I don't know how long it took him but it wasn't ten seconds. It was an eternity to me and it was certainly an eternity to him.
It might be the wrong thing to do, but on that day, with that situation it would have been better to say "Help is on it's way. When you get yourself sorted can you give us your position again in a different format of your choice. There's no rush, but we want to double check the the helicopter is going to the right place.". I know differently now, but at time I felt they wanted a position from the GPS in a convenient format purely for a form they had in front of them, and a lot of the other questions felt like he was filling in a form as well. It was clear the casualty felt the same. (As I say, I know differently now.)
I'm sure in most incidents that involve yachts it's far more convenient to read from the GPS, but then even yachtsmen aren't always in yachts, sometimes we're in the tender or paddleboarding.
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NormanS
Well-known member
Time matters if you're busy trying to find the source of a leak, or trying to stop a leak, or put out a fire. All the time that the CG keeps you on the radio, asking if you're wearing a lifejacket etc, is time that would be better spent sorting the actual problem.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Do you think folks are going to prioritise correct radio over the immediate needs of the situation?
Personally, I doubt that they would and if there are crew onboard and at least one is trained, likely stuff will happen concurrently.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Why would anyone do anything else but deal with the immediate requirements of the incident? An incident which requires a Mayday is unique and how people respond will depend on all sorts of stuff.
Having a format to send a distress call is just a starting point, part of any number of actions which may take precedence.
My point still stands, reciting lat and long from a GPS readout, stating Call Sign and MMSI takes very little time.
If someone doesn’t have a clue how to behave in an emergency then procedures and protocol become irrelevant.
boomerangben
Well-known member
If you are up to your eye balls and have already passed a position and summary of what is going on, then you can always ask/tell the CG to “standby” while you sort other stuff out
Mark-1
Well-known member
You might not have intended it but your post was saying the exact opposite of this. That's why people replied.
Mark-1
Well-known member
If they've dispatched someone to rescue you then you can tell them to standby, but it's clear from this thread that not many people know that the rescue is initiated before the questions are over. I didn't, and I wasn't the only one.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
It was not. I made no claim about when a Mayday call should be made in an emergency scenario. There will be examples that we can construe where making a Mayday call would be a ridiculous act, and some where making the call early in the incident would be a reasonable act. The only point I make is that reciting a few numbers and letters is not time consuming.
Mark-1
Well-known member
Well, whatever the post said, we can certainly all agree with this:
"An incident which requires a Mayday is unique and how people respond will depend on all sorts of stuff.
Having a format to send a distress call is just a starting point"
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
It's worth remembering that positions given by reference to a named feature may not be unique; an awful lot of placenames are duplicated in the UK. "Sgeir Dubh" (Black rock) is notorious on the west coast of Scotland! Also remember that the CG are centralized and that the operational area is vast, giving plenty of scope for such duplicated placenames to be a factor. Fine if the position is WRT a named navigation mark, as their names are likely to be unique, but you can't count on placenames being unique (unless you're in the Antarctic, where there is an agreement not to duplicate placenames, and even there there are one or two duplicates that predate the agreement!)
I can't cite chapter and verse, but I have certainly read of rescue attempts where resources were sent to the wrong place because of confusion over placenames.
I can't cite chapter and verse, but I have certainly read of rescue attempts where resources were sent to the wrong place because of confusion over placenames.
NormanS
Well-known member
The fishing boat "Aquilla" capsized while dragging for scallops, near Bo Fascadale, on the north side of Ardnamurchan. I think it was in 2009.
A member of the public, onshore, saw it happen, and ran to a house to report it on the phone. He gave a clear description of the location. Unfortunately, his description included the name of a closeby hamlet called Kilmory. There are dozens of Kilmorys.
An opsroom CG, instead of listening to the full and coherent distress call, picked up the word Kilmory, immediately thought of the wrong Kilmory, and acted on it.
Three men died. The facts all eventually came out in the MAIB report.
A member of the public, onshore, saw it happen, and ran to a house to report it on the phone. He gave a clear description of the location. Unfortunately, his description included the name of a closeby hamlet called Kilmory. There are dozens of Kilmorys.
An opsroom CG, instead of listening to the full and coherent distress call, picked up the word Kilmory, immediately thought of the wrong Kilmory, and acted on it.
Three men died. The facts all eventually came out in the MAIB report.
Dutch01527
Well-known member
The person in charge of the vessel can decide how the communication is delivered dependent on the circumstances. I would be happy to change the format and defer answers to the more detailed questions if I thought that was necessary. For example DSC plus the following spoken slowly and clearly:
“ Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue. Mayday, Maday, Mayday. We are on fire, we are on fire. We require immediate assistance, immediate assistance. We are 1 mile south(or distance and bearing) of Dartmouth Castle, Devon, 1 mile south of Dartmouth Castle, Devon. We are a 40 foot sailing boat, 40 foot sailing boat. Hull and sails are white, white. Two people on board, two people. Please confirm receipt of message. Please confirm receipt of message.”
Repeat if no confirmation or clarify essentials if needed.
That would be much more useful than lat and long, call sign etc to communicate to local vessels who might be in a position to help quickly. It would also give the Coast Guard the essential information they need to start rescue activities.
I understand that a one size fits all procedure needs to exist and be taught but there is nothing to stop us making a decision to deviate from that if we judge it necessary.
“ Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue. Mayday, Maday, Mayday. We are on fire, we are on fire. We require immediate assistance, immediate assistance. We are 1 mile south(or distance and bearing) of Dartmouth Castle, Devon, 1 mile south of Dartmouth Castle, Devon. We are a 40 foot sailing boat, 40 foot sailing boat. Hull and sails are white, white. Two people on board, two people. Please confirm receipt of message. Please confirm receipt of message.”
Repeat if no confirmation or clarify essentials if needed.
That would be much more useful than lat and long, call sign etc to communicate to local vessels who might be in a position to help quickly. It would also give the Coast Guard the essential information they need to start rescue activities.
I understand that a one size fits all procedure needs to exist and be taught but there is nothing to stop us making a decision to deviate from that if we judge it necessary.
wonkywinch
Well-known member
Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance.
Or STENDEC for morse fans.
Or STENDEC for morse fans.
RupertW
Well-known member
Correct, that was me and I stand by it when referring to the suggestion that life jackets should be worn at all times on all boats , day or night, calm or storm.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
If your GRP boat is on fire, highly unlikely you are going to say anything slowly, especially if it is old GRP formulation which is very flammable compared to modern mixes and Epoxy.
If you are going to customise your distress message and say say all of that, why not follow the protocol, which includes a position in any appropriate format?
I think it is weird that there is an accepted method of communicating distress messages yet folks don't want to use it. Odd.
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