npb
New member
so why cant we have a thing like red petrol for us users of petrol boats, a bit, sorry a lot unfair that petrol users are not thought of in this red diesel war
red petrol
- Thread starter npb
- Start date
rickp
Active member
Well, put it this way: the odds of getting a 'red petrol' introduced for boaters are slighty less than aliens landing on the planet tomorrow. Yes, its unfair that marine petrol users are paying 'road duty' on their fuel, but trying to change that situation is pointless. Plus its not a situation that has changed recently, so anyone buying a petrol boat knew the situation when they got it.
I do feel for petrol users, but thats the reality of it I'm afraid.
Rick
I do feel for petrol users, but thats the reality of it I'm afraid.
Rick
npb
New member
but the goverment should be answerble for taking the duty on fuel that is not being used on the road, it amounts to fraud.
Nigel
Nigel
Whitelighter
Active member
well as long as you're alright......
rickp
Active member
No, not at all. However if that's your attitude then don't expect much help with your campaign....
Rick
Rick
Whitelighter
Active member
Sadly there is no campaign, or not one that I am aware of. I am far to used to living in a country in which every one who works hard is screwed into the ground, while those who's solution is to produce more delinquents to upgrade their free house prosper to expect our government would listen.
I still dont understand why so many people in this country are so nrrow minded - what i dont have, I wont consider - what i dont know I wont entertain etc...
I still dont understand why so many people in this country are so nrrow minded - what i dont have, I wont consider - what i dont know I wont entertain etc...
bazobeleza
New member
Well theres your answer. get the delinqent producing oiks into boating, there'll be subsidised marinas, derogated petrol, free chandlery vouchers, and with a bit of luck most of em will drown as thir boats sink due to lack of maintence, and the 75 inch widescreen tellys with ten satelite dishes on the mast.
Tisme
New member
The idea that fuel tax is somehow linked to the provision of the road network goes back to the dim and distant past. It hasn't been like that for decades and is a red herring that some cling onto in the hope that it will support their campaign for red diesel. Fuel tax is a simple tax this days; the money just goes into the general fund at the Exchequer.
What is more relevant is that on the grounds of the environment and the fact that the general public will not support the use of "cheap" fuel for leisure boating, red diesel will not be sustainable in the long run.
Eventually you will have your level playing field, but only because diesel will be put up, not because petrol is put down.
What is more relevant is that on the grounds of the environment and the fact that the general public will not support the use of "cheap" fuel for leisure boating, red diesel will not be sustainable in the long run.
Eventually you will have your level playing field, but only because diesel will be put up, not because petrol is put down.
npb
New member
I am not Just thinking of myself, like diesel boaters there are also many petrol boaters, I feel these comments '' If your alright then'' are unfounded and narrow minded. What is wrong with wanting the same relief on fuel that diesel users get. As to knowing that petrol had no relief on it when i bought my boat, It was on the understanding that the relief on red diesel was to be withdrawn at the end of dec 2006, hence the purchase of my petrol / LPG boat, unfortunatley the LPG tank has since been removed with no plans to re install it, and no where within 100miles. So in short WHY should diesel boaters get a relief when petrol boaters dont
npb
New member
just a quicky, I noticed that nobody has given an answer to my last comment above
So in short WHY should diesel boaters get a relief when petrol boaters dont
any thoughts!!!
So in short WHY should diesel boaters get a relief when petrol boaters dont
any thoughts!!!
Gludy
Active member
I think you are not looking at it in the right way.
Diesel users are not getting relief. No one is giving them anything. Petrol users are paying more and the question should be why is that - why should petrol users pay more?
I agree it unjust. The reasons are historic. There was a red diesel in existance but not a red petrol. Commercial boats are almost all diesel and so the industry built up with that and then when leisure boating started to grow they just used the same fuel.
As petrol boats were introduced it was not practicable to have a totally new class of petrol fuel just for them - so they were left having to use fuel that carried a road tax element that they in theory should not have to pay.
Whilst unfair there is more chances of a snowball lasting in hell than any government introducing a new class of fuel.
That is the simple reason why you are paying more. Had commercial boats used petrol and the industry grown up with that the shoe would be on the other foot and there would be red petrol leaving the diesel user to pay road fuel prices.
Asking for another to be taxed more is always a bad appraoch - always ask for those paying too much to be taxed less.
Diesel users are not getting relief. No one is giving them anything. Petrol users are paying more and the question should be why is that - why should petrol users pay more?
I agree it unjust. The reasons are historic. There was a red diesel in existance but not a red petrol. Commercial boats are almost all diesel and so the industry built up with that and then when leisure boating started to grow they just used the same fuel.
As petrol boats were introduced it was not practicable to have a totally new class of petrol fuel just for them - so they were left having to use fuel that carried a road tax element that they in theory should not have to pay.
Whilst unfair there is more chances of a snowball lasting in hell than any government introducing a new class of fuel.
That is the simple reason why you are paying more. Had commercial boats used petrol and the industry grown up with that the shoe would be on the other foot and there would be red petrol leaving the diesel user to pay road fuel prices.
Asking for another to be taxed more is always a bad appraoch - always ask for those paying too much to be taxed less.
gandy
Active member
Why did Red diesel (rather than petrol) get created in the first place, does anyone know? There were petrol tractors before Diesel.
Tony S
Tony S
rickp
Active member
Weren't they TVO rather than petrol? TVO was untaxed so there was no need for an untaxed petrol.
A friend still runs a TVO tractor and uses a bit of petrol to start/stop but then runs on TVO (mostly parafin as I recall).
Edit: Aha, more info here including the details of why tax-free petrol was withdrawn during the war and not re-instated and hence TVO tractors were born...
Rick
A friend still runs a TVO tractor and uses a bit of petrol to start/stop but then runs on TVO (mostly parafin as I recall).
Edit: Aha, more info here including the details of why tax-free petrol was withdrawn during the war and not re-instated and hence TVO tractors were born...
Rick
Gludy
Active member
So can we please blame Hitler for starting the war because without the war it seems we would have tax free marine petrol today!!!!!!
Nickcf
New member
..because if the price of red diesel increases to street level it will cause massive damage to the UK marine industry. Look what has happened to businesses around Windermere when the market forces are severely impacted (by imposing a 10mph speed limit and forcing mobo's out).
There is no realistic chance of red petrol being introduced so using the price of petrol as an arguement as to why diesel should be increased is pointless.
There is no realistic chance of red petrol being introduced so using the price of petrol as an arguement as to why diesel should be increased is pointless.
npb
New member
I am not asking for red diesel to be increased, all I am wanting is for petrol and diesel to be the same price as it is at the forecourt, idealy this to be at the price of red diesel, although i think it is not an even playing field I strongly agreed that red diesel should remain, if not at a lower price, as the goverment does not seam to have any just reason for imposing their dutys on a fuel that is used for plesure and not on a public highway, if anyone was to add a duty to marine fuel it should be the coastguard or some governing body self funded to assist the needy mariner,
as to the why we have red diesel, it should be forgoten, do you think the goverment thinks historically when thinking up a new tax law.. no no no they just do it cos they can
as to the why we have red diesel, it should be forgoten, do you think the goverment thinks historically when thinking up a new tax law.. no no no they just do it cos they can
adrianm
New member
[ QUOTE ]
So in short WHY should diesel boaters get a relief when petrol boaters dont
[/ QUOTE ]
Diesel boats don't get relief, the tax isn't there in the first place, an important difference.
This whole argument is a bit like buying a house next to an airport and then complaining that it keeps the value of your house down.
So in short WHY should diesel boaters get a relief when petrol boaters dont
[/ QUOTE ]
Diesel boats don't get relief, the tax isn't there in the first place, an important difference.
This whole argument is a bit like buying a house next to an airport and then complaining that it keeps the value of your house down.
Gludy
Active member
I think that tat if I were paying road rates plus for a petrol boat I would resent the fact that I am paying the highest tax in Europe.
However, I would not want to solve the problem by asking that the same level of high tax be imposed on others. That would only make matters worse not better.
However, I would not want to solve the problem by asking that the same level of high tax be imposed on others. That would only make matters worse not better.
Whitelighter
Active member
I think most pterol boater knew what they were buying when they bought their boats. I for one, while I resent paying tax to keep the roads when using my boat, would not want diesel users to be paying the same.
I think the red petrol discussion is a hyperhtetical arguement that highlights the inconsistancies and general greyness of our successive govenrments plicy descisions.
See my latest post in the Mobo forum an see that I really DONT want tax to go up on derv.
I think the red petrol discussion is a hyperhtetical arguement that highlights the inconsistancies and general greyness of our successive govenrments plicy descisions.
See my latest post in the Mobo forum an see that I really DONT want tax to go up on derv.
Gludy
Active member
Even though there seems to be a good chance that we will keep red, I think the government will probably extend deroagtion for the wrong reasons. Mind you any reason will do but it would be nice to see logic being applied.
