Red diesel problems in Belgium again it seems

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Indeed, and I am usually carefulto qualify with the words "the majority"
We do live in a democracy after all and it wouldnt be a democracy if we werent what we are.
I was having a discussion the other night with a person, he was struggling to find the words to describe what we know as the "social compact" where decent law abiding people abide by societies rules and accept the democratic will of the majority of people who engage with our democratic process. Is quite difficult for a me as a Brexit supporter to be continually told we are stupid and described as drooling rusk eating what evers!
Stu

I agree that the democratic will must be upheld or chaos and civil strife, if not war, will be a consequence. Similarly you cannot have exceptions, like red diesel, when a pan state rule exists, however it was arrived at, or taxation chaos will occur. How can Belgian authorities be sure its own citizens have not purchased red duty free fuel from commercial entities in Belgium or Holland? I suspect there will be some of their citizens who "try it on" just as there are in the U.K. No doubt some U.K. citizens put central heating red diesel in their boats at a reduced rate of tax.
I can't see this problem being solved anytime soon, either before or after the Brexit negotiations conclude!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I agree that the democratic will must be upheld or chaos and civil strife, if not war, will be a consequence. Similarly you cannot have exceptions, like red diesel, when a pan state rule exists, however it was arrived at, or taxation chaos will occur. How can Belgian authorities be sure its own citizens have not purchased red duty free fuel from commercial entities in Belgium or Holland? I suspect there will be some of their citizens who "try it on" just as there are in the U.K. No doubt some U.K. citizens put central heating red diesel in their boats at a reduced rate of tax.
I can't see this problem being solved anytime soon, either before or after the Brexit negotiations conclude!

Presumably after Brexit the Belgians will have no interest in the taxation state of UK boat fuel.

 

[Supine Being]

Presumably after Brexit the Belgians will have no interest in the taxation state of UK boat fuel.

Perhaps. Or perhaps we'll be entering into a whole new world of mindless bureaucracy, and not just with the Belgians either. No one knows.

 

[Daydream believer]

I agree that the democratic will must be upheld or chaos and civil strife, if not war, will be a consequence. Similarly you cannot have exceptions, like red diesel, when a pan state rule exists, however it was arrived at, or taxation chaos will occur. How can Belgian authorities be sure its own citizens have not purchased red duty free fuel from commercial entities in Belgium or Holland? I suspect there will be some of their citizens who "try it on" just as there are in the U.K. No doubt some U.K. citizens put central heating red diesel in their boats at a reduced rate of tax.
I can't see this problem being solved anytime soon, either before or after the Brexit negotiations conclude!

I have no doubt that you are right that some individuals do break the law. However, the heavy handed response is not really fair if one can provide reasonable backup as to legal purchase within one's own country.
One is hardly likely to do that with heating oil & to label all yachtsmen as criminals is hardly correct.
The French & Dutch seem to accept the situation as long as other legalities are complied with so would it not be reasonable for the Belgian authorities to do the same. Yachtsmen are, after all, just pawns in the game.
I do believe that our government could at least approach the Belgians & propose a stay of execution until the matter is finally resolved. I do hope that the RYA has approached our MPs on the matte. I really wonder if it is doing all it can to help.

Is it doing anything to aid recovery of fines on behalf of the yachtsmen thus penalised?

If i felt that they were then i would feel happier about going to Ostend. I will be going for 2 trips in july & august & have cleaned my tanks ready. However, i do have to take spare cans as one cannot buy fuel in ostend & a trip to blankenburge is a pain in the rear if i cannot take cans. In any event if i buy fuel at a garage in ostend how do i fill my tanks except from cans?

 

[Supine Being]

If i felt that they were then i would feel happier about going to Ostend. I will be going for 2 trips in july & august & have cleaned my tanks ready. However, i do have to take spare cans as one cannot buy fuel in ostend & a trip to blankenburge is a pain in the rear if i cannot take cans. In any event if i buy fuel at a garage in ostend how do i fill my tanks except from cans?

Can you not take road diesel in cans? I know it's a pain, but if it's unmarked then what's the problem?

 

[Bru]

Can you not take road diesel in cans? I know it's a pain, but if it's unmarked then what's the problem?

The RYA info simply states that you can't carry fuel in cans in Belgium, it doesn't say anything about "red" or "white". Without clarification, it's another risk factor

 

[awol]

..........
EN590: European Std automotive fuel which typically has 7% FAME. This makes it unsuitable for marine use for many reasons and it is especially prone to the diesel bug and other particulates, which plague many boaters. Lots of marinas sell this stuff, which may lawfully be dyed red and duty rebated.

BS 2869: Standard Duty Rebated Gas Oil which 'may' contain up to 7% FAME. This is low sulphur stuff and may be used by all boaters, both inland and marine. The reduction in lubricity implied by low sulphur can easily be counteracted with other additives, but FAME (if it is added) can be a problem.

ISO8217 is the stuff to buy (IMHO) and Exxon's Fawley refinery in Southampton sells this product to many of the UK's South Coast Marinas. Many commercial marine operators contraindicate the use of any other fuel in their smaller vessels, ship generators, etc (ship engines are a different world). They hate the bug! It is perfectly lawful for UK suppliers to sell this to boaters, save to those in inland waterways.

You are probably confusing the thread with facts. ISO8217 as well as being FAME free is not low sulphur, something older engines appreciate. It is however not suitable for some engines, I believe it may invalidate warranty on some late engines. My local marina is intending to install another tank for EN590 as they are losing sales to large mobos who are bringing in road tankers for fill ups.

That has little to do with red in Belgium but I presume all those caught or at risk signed a declaration to HMRC stating ....
"I am aware that the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979, which permits the use of marked diesel to propel private pleasure craft, only applies within UK waters. I acknowledge that nothing in that Act, or the making of this declaration, affects any restrictions or prohibitions that may apply to the use of fuel for propelling private pleasure craft outside UK waters, including any restrictions or prohibitions under the law of another Member State that apply within the waters of that Member State."

 

[Supine Being]

The RYA info simply states that you can't carry fuel in cans in Belgium, it doesn't say anything about "red" or "white". Without clarification, it's another risk factor

I can't see that anywhere on this page This is the closest that I could find:

Do not carry red diesel anywhere other than in their craft's main fuel storage tanks

Which seems logical. After all, what's the point of marking diesel if not to say what's duty paid and what isn't? The whole reason that we're in this mess is the we Brits are muddying the waters with duty-paid red, so I would be puzzled if white diesel in cans was verboten. Is there another source, Bru?

 

[Bru]

I can't see that anywhere on this page This is the closest that I could find:


Which seems logical. After all, what's the point of marking diesel if not to say what's duty paid and what isn't? The whole reason that we're in this mess is the we Brits are muddying the waters with duty-paid red, so I would be puzzled if white diesel in cans was verboten. Is there another source, Bru?

Not any more! It was that very page and it's obviously been edited!!! Which is a relief 'cos I have a cunning plan ...

 

[sailorman]

Can you not take road diesel in cans? I know it's a pain, but if it's unmarked then what's the problem?

On the ECF Oostende voor Anker trip i took 30 lts of white, in cans, i didnt need it but thought others might. As it turns out Nordmark was desperately short & he had it, then refilled the cans via 2 man peddle car ( from the promenade ) & 2 strong crew who found a filling stn

 

[dom]

You are probably confusing the thread with facts. ISO8217 as well as being FAME free is not low sulphur, something older engines appreciate. It is however not suitable for some engines, I believe it may invalidate warranty on some late engines.

The higher sulphur bit of course being why the 8217 stuff is not available for inland waterways. My main point here is that peeps need to check that the diesel is exactly what they want and for the vast majority that means FAME free. For some mobos, it does indeed mean exactly the opposite:

Re the newer engines; a friend of mine with a couple of big MAN common-rail 1600s (I think) has also been directed to use EN590, but with some shifty provision along the lines, "if the biodiesel used does not meet the approved EN590 specification it may cause abnormal wear of injectors, damage the engine and invalidate the warranty, blah, blah". These manufacturers just don't sell enough to allow for multiple fuel use. And it gets worse; the manufacturer goes on to claim that biofuels may deteriorate certain plastic and rubber components in the fuel system external to the engine and may suffer from various particulate deposits and bacterial growth. Predictably if any of this gets into the engine ....well bye bye warranty.

Still, us raggies shld prob follow the mobos lead and be a bit choosier about exactly what we want!

Prob better leave the drift there :ambivalence:

 

[Javelin]

The Harbour master at Southwold has just had a delivery of 300l of white diesel so both are available from the harbour wall.

For three years I've only filled up with white and my tank and filter still looks reddish.
Must have had four full cycles now.

 

[Bru]

The Harbour master at Southwold has just had a delivery of 300l of white diesel so both are available from the harbour wall.

For three years I've only filled up with white and my tank and filter still looks reddish.
Must have had four full cycles now.

You'll never entirely get rid of it.

 

[sailorman]

You'll never entirely get rid of it.

correct, so what is the acceptable limit the Belgians will accept

 

[Bru]

correct, so what is the acceptable limit the Belgians will accept

That's the several hundred euros question innit

 

[Daydream believer]

That's the several hundred euros question innit

As i pointed out in an earlier post. There is an eu directive on the amount or percentage of red that one can have. I just cannot post it at present as i am in boulogne. Not at home with my computer. When i return on friday/saturday i will do so & all will be revealled - i hope

 

[sailorman]

As i pointed out in an earlier post. There is an eu directive on the amount or percentage of red that one can have. I just cannot post it at present as i am in boulogne. Not at home with my computer. When i return on friday/saturday i will do so & all will be revealled - i hope

How would the ordinary English boat owner wishing to visit Belgium , test the dosage

 

[Daydream believer]

You'll never entirely get rid of it.

I cleaned my tanks fully & there is no sign of red. It just took a couple of hours to drain, remove the tank cover, wipe all the crud ( worth it just for that) cleaned the fuel lines ( plus one new one) & then refuelled in white from new cans. 3 hours in all. Job done
Only problem now is how to solve the can problem. I have a tank i can slip in as a " reserve " in the bilges which is an ex rib container ( for diesel) & i can lift that out when needed but make it look as though it is plumbed in quite easily so i may go down that route
If robert was still there i would have got him to keep the cans in his workshop for me whilst i was ther.e. Not sure if i can persuade Simon though. Have bought him enough drinks so he may be up for it!!!!

 

[sailorman]

I cleaned my tanks fully & there is no sign of red. It just took a couple of hours to drain, remove the tank cover, wipe all the crud ( worth it just for that) cleaned the fuel lines ( plus one new one) & then refuelled in white from new cans. 3 hours in all. Job done
Only problem now is how to solve the can problem. I have a tank i can slip in as a " reserve " in the bilges which is an ex rib container ( for diesel) & i can lift that out when needed but make it look as though it is plumbed in quite easily so i may go down that route
If robert was still there i would have got him to keep the cans in his workshop for me whilst i was ther.e. Not sure if i can persuade Simon though. Have bought him enough drinks so he may be up for it!!!!

 

[Daydream believer]

How would the ordinary English boat owner wishing to visit Belgium , test the dosage

You do not but when you get back you get the RYA to challenge the belgian customs that they did not test the dosage either so as there was no proof that you were over the limit they had no right to fine you. Therefore, money back. That is if the RYA do the job we members pay them to do. In fact they should wait until the end of the year & do one massive case on the basis that none was checked so none could be proven 100% & if it ain't 100% then they cannot fine you on a " suspicion"