Recommended stepping stone from dinghy sailing to yacht cruising

[JSpalding]

You will always hear stories of people having difficulties with local officials but there is almost always two sides to the story and you only hear one. What the RYA says is correct - states can impose conditions on visitors but the reality is that they don't do so systematically and such events are almost always the result of some incident. Thousands of British have sailed around Europe for years and never had to show any licence - and this is unlikely to change because of Brexit as the EU has nothing to do with maritime law. The problems Brits may face is related to Schengen or VAT on their boats, both of which did change following Brexit but everything else related to boating is either international or individual state law. An ICC is widely accepted as evidence of competence, but this is a UN sponsored certificate, and as I suggested rarely asked for from private boat skippers but more commonly to charter boats.

Okay, well the way I see it is that the laws are there and I am a law abiding citizen. Everyone has the choice to abide by the law or to try to get away with breaking it...
Spain
Greece

 

[DownWest]

Okay, well the way I see it is that the laws are there and I am a law abiding citizen. Everyone has the choice to abide by the law or to try to get away with breaking it...

That was pretty rude.
Tranona has years of experience to back up his comments.

 

[Tranona]

Okay, well the way I see it is that the laws are there and I am a law abiding citizen. Everyone has the choice to abide by the law or to try to get away with breaking it...

You misunderstand the nature of the "laws". The difficulty people have is breaking some other law - for example hitting another boat or committing another offence, NOT the lack of a licence, simply because most states stick to the notion of "comity" unless they have a law that specifically requires something else - for example Croatia has a law that a licence is required to skipper a Croatian registered boat, but not to sail a non Croatian boat in their waters, and Portugal has a law that requires foreign boats that are deemed "resident" to be equipped to local standards.

Of course it is sensible to have an ICC if you are sailing in areas where states have more controls over leisure sailing for their own citizens, but it does not mean that it would be an offence for a non citizen with a foreign boat not to have one when visiting. AFAIK no European state has such a law - so you have nothing to "break".

 

[DownWest]

And, my experience ties with his. You need an ICC if you take to the canals, as you are mixing with big commercial traffic. Curiously, renting motor boats on the canals from the recognised companies does not require a licence here.
In France, a licence is not required for a sailing boat if the primary motive power is sails. Otherwise one is needed for over 6hp (might be 10 now)

 

[Beluga Sail]

Thanks again to everyone for the continued stream of suggestions. Regarding the ICC: in the grand scheme of learning, getting a boat and preparing for a long voyage, it seems that getting the ICC could be easily accommodated into the process if necessary. I will keep it in mind but won't worry about it too much at this stage.

 

[JSpalding]

That was pretty rude.
Tranona has years of experience to back up his comments.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it certainly was not my intention .
I was just passing on information I had read on the RYA's website. I guess the best advice is to seek professional advice about requirements before sailing to another country.
Found this part of the RYA website with some great advice on this:
Country specific advice | boating abroad | RYA

 

[Stemar]

In my experience, and not just in boating, the necessity for paperwork is directly proportional to how badly you've upset a local official.

 

[Kwik Decision]

Anyone with proficiency in dinghies is, in practical terms, at Day Skipper level, and the next best step is to do Coastal Skipper Theory, so as to be prepared for a Coastal Skipper practical course. Day Skipper is what it says on the label, whereas the Coastal level brings in some experience of night sailing which will be desirable, sooner or later.

Speaking as an ex instructor, I must disagree with this. If the OP has no yachting experience, they would be better starting at Comp crew, but even better would be to get some experience with others (and effectively cover the comp crew stuff), and then do Day Skipper theory and practical. There is very little actual sailing in a Day Skipper course, and a lot of other stuff, that somebody moving up from dinghies will likely not have covered before (Prep for sea - very different on a yacht , and includes knowledge of stability of yachts, Deck work - prep for coming along side or anchoring, use of winches (which should have been covered at Comp Crew), & reefing, Navigation, Pilotage, Meterology, Rules of the road, Engines, Victualling, inc cooking on board, Emergency situations, Handling under power, Passage making, and Night cruising - yes, a 4 hr night sail is an essential part of a Day Skipper course). Coastal Skipper is about preparing for and making longer passages - and assumes the candidate already has a reasonable amount of yachting experience, up to Day Skip standard as a minimum.

Going back to the OP's initial question, I made the move from dinghies to yachts over 20 yrs ago. I started by doing Day Skip and then YM theory, and then joined my local sailing club (Tees & Hartlepool). I sailed with a number of different Skippers on different yachts - lots of racing, and also quite a lot of longer cruises / deliveries and I learned loads. I also joined Crew seekers, and did a couple of cruises through that. The main downside of this approach is that you don't get any practice at handling under power in marinas etc, as the owner will generally be doing that - so I did the Day Skip course to get that experience. After 5 yrs or so, I then knew what I wanted in a yacht (and found a wife who was into sailing!), and we bought a Sadler 29. Had I gone out and bought a boat at the beginning (and I was very tempted!), it would have been a much smaller trailer sailor, which I would quickly have grown out of, but the Sadler we kept for 9 yrs, and sailed round the UK in.

 

[CapPugwash]

My path was similar to Kwiky.

I crewed a bit, then did comp crew, crewed a bit more, then Day Skipper, a few charters then bought an Albin Vega 27. I enjoyed sailing her for about 4 seasons before buying my Vancouver 32.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

If you want to sail around Europe one day then you will need a licence. You don't need one in the UK, but you do in most countries abroad.
The most universally recognised set of qualifications worldwide is the RYA cruising scheme with which you can also get an ICC without any further examination.

If you are going to need these sooner or later, might as well get them over with sooner. You will learn loads in a really short space of time and get some quality time with instructors at a relatively low cost. They might even have tips on how to progress and get more experience.

If you don't know how to navigate (plot tidal vectors, calculate variation and deviation, plot a course to steer, use the admiralty method for calculating tidal heights etc) or know your IRPCS then you will need to start at Day Skipper as most of this is assumed knowledge before you start your Coastal Skipper qualification. Day Skipper is also all you need in terms of licencing and has a much more friendly and enjoyable examination process.

The Day Skipper course is a big undertaking with a 40+ hour theory half and a 5 day practical half, but you can save a bit of hassle and money by taking the Day Skipper Theory online through a provider such as Ardent Training.

The convention is that whatever qualification you are required to have in your home country is what you are required to have when sailing in the territorial waters of another country. Since there is no licencing requirement for UK and Irish sailors at home, none is required of them abroad.
That being said, there two considerations, (a), most charter companies require at least an ICC, or RYA Day Skipper, of anyone wishing to hire their boats.
(b), Yes, formal training, as suggested by JSpalding, is the best path on which to acquire the skills necessary to skipper a sailing yacht. It would always by my recommendation.

 

[Rhylsailer99]

I think people tend to worry and think too much and if you want a sailing boat just buy one and worry about the rest later.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry if I offended anyone, it certainly was not my intention .
I was just passing on information I had read on the RYA's website. I guess the best advice is to seek professional advice about requirements before sailing to another country.
Found this part of the RYA website with some great advice on this:
Country specific advice | boating abroad | RYA

There is nothing new about this advice, nor is it incorrect and certainly wise for anybody new to sailing abroad to read it (and similar advice from such sources as the Cruising Association and the US Noonsite forum) but as I said earlier thousands of people have been sailing abroad for years without any difficulty, particularly with the issue of "licences" which for the vast majority is a non issue. Of course there are some issues that do cause problems from time to time, some of which have been mentioned already. It is also true that most other states have far more regulation for boating in general including licences and perhaps more importantly give far more power to local officials to enforce what are often vague and and badly written rules. Most of the restrictive rules about boats and licencing apply to locals only and not to visitors, although there are many like speed limits, anchoring restrictions, reporting on movements, cruising permits, taxes and light dues as examples that apply to everybody

However in reality if you follow the basics - registered boat, insured, seaworthy, follow the rules of the sea, are polite and behave well you are highly unlikely to ever encounter any difficulties. It is important that one distinguishes between the different types of rules/laws and it is obvious that the ones likely to give rise to problems are those specific to each state. This is what the individual country guides from the RYA attempt to cover, but inevitably it can be difficult to keep up, particularly in times of major political change such as in the last 3 or 4 years.

 

[jac]

Some good replies here.
My 2p.

How committed is your other half? IF they are just as keen as you, and you both like camping then a trailer sailer in the UK can be a good introduction. BUT

If they are less sure, then a weekend stuck in a grey, cold rainy and choppy industrial port, sleeping next to a chemical toilet after you have used it to assist with the after effects of the lads annual curry and guiness night may put her off for ever.

IF you need to do any persuading, do a flotilla somewhere warm. - It will give you practice in living in a confined space but with some element of comfort.

As other s have said, the tricky bit isn't the sailing, it;s the close quarters stuff under power and the maintenance and a small simple trailer sailer won;t give you that. A flotilla yacht will give you the close quarters bit though.
My suggestion would be, RYA Day Skipper Theory and Practical in the UK plus a flotilla somewhere nice this year. Also join a vaguely convenient club and get known by people. Look to buy a fairly simple older yacht by a big manufacturer and not really altered but not trailerable, something round 27-30 feet and sail that for 2 years . Then once you have 2-3 years experience sell the 27-30 footer and buy something 10 foot bigger for your trip but take at least season sailing locally to learn it and adapt it

 

[steve yates]

You will learn far more sailing your own boat than you ever will crewing fir others.
i did what your thinking, bought an 18ft boat and learned as i went along, and had a blast. I still have her, even though i bought a bigger one. (31ft) They are very different experiences, enough so that i am keeping the wee one, coastal cruising just too easy in the big one, nowhere near the adventure element that the small boats provide. So big boat for big adventures and ones with my wife or friends, wee boat for solo adventures. For instance, i’ve always fancied a cruise round ireland. If i take the big boat, its almost a certainty I will do it, and in bigger stages and shorter time. So I actually would want to try that in the wee boat, as the chance of failure is high, the stages will be shorter and the whole thing will take longer, so i’ll see more and have more fun

 

[doug748]

"I think people tend to worry and think too much and if you want a sailing boat just buy one and worry about the rest later."

"You will learn far more sailing your own boat than you ever will crewing fir others."



Hurrah!

I agree, by all means do a RYA course, blag sails with others and even charter but nothing really fully prepares you for decision making when you are on your own.



"So I guess my question is: Is a year or two sailing a pocket cruiser going to be valuable experience to stepping up to a cruising yacht?"

It would be invaluable. Not least in giving you an insight into what sort or sailing and what sort of boat, would really suit you.


.

 

[Birdseye]

Hello,

I'm hoping some of you who've been there and done it can offer some advice on getting into yacht cruising.

My partner and I have been dinghy sailing for a few years (mostly inland waters) but aspire to get into yachting and at some point undertake a journey around Europe, living aboard for up to a few months at a time. This isn't going to happen straight away but I don't want to wait forever either, I'd like to make the option available in 2-3 years time. So I feel I should start laying some foundations and getting experience.

I want to be able to get experience sailing on the sea and with looking after a boat, making as many mistakes as is necessary to learn quickly but in such a way where these mistakes come cheaply. I do have a budget for this but whatever I do needs to be good experience-value for money. There's two options I feel I have for this interim period:

1) crewing on other people's yachts
2) buying and sailing a 'pocket cruiser'

Crewing for others is often something I hear recommended and I can understand why. In reality though, I'm not sure how available this option is going to be to me; I do not live near to the main yachting areas and quite frankly I don't know anybody with a yacht! Perhaps this will change as I get my foot in the door but right now that's not where I am. Hence the thought to buy a pocket cruiser which would also allow me to get experience with aspects of boat ownership and maintenance. I'm thinking something between 18-24' that can be trailered so I can visit different parts of the coast and bring it home for maintenance, but I don't know if this type of experience is actually what I need? - are these trailerable pocket cruisers, and what one an do with them, more like sailing a mini yacht or just a big dinghy?

I've not mentioned formal training such as the RYA courses because I first need an idea of how I would follow those up with actual sailing, but I will of course consider these courses as well.

So I guess my question is: Is a year or two sailing a pocket cruiser going to be valuable experience to stepping up to a cruising yacht? And what else should I do to get meaningful experience quickly?

Looking forward to your thoughts! Thanks.

Sailing a yacht is far easier than sailing a dinghy so you are already pretty OK in that area. As for issues like tides and nav, the best thing is to do an RYA course - shorebased is better since the learning time for book work on board whilst doing a one week sea based course is limited. As for experience, remember that boats are far easier to buy than to sell and in any case you need to know what you are buying anyway. Best to join a club and volunteer to crew for people. There are far more skippers wanting crew than crew wanting skippers.

 

[jaminb]

I bought my first yacht (37ft 15 year old AWB) as a lock down purchase with very little big boat experience, a couple of flotilla holidays and delivery cruises as skipper, having come from racing dinghy's and cruising in a Drascombe when the kids came along. I re passed my Day Skipper Theory to refresh after 25 years.
First few trips were terrifying and I nearly put the family off for life, but now we are happy confident crew and I can happily sail solo if the everyone is busy. Maintenance is the steepest learning curve but I am getting to grips with her and am confident that I resolve most issues (electrics excepted) especially with the back up of Seas Start in the Solent. I would have bought a smaller first boat but we needed 3 cabins to accomodate the grand parents and don't regret buying the extra 7ft (other than marina fees) .

 

[Fossil]

+1 for the flotilla holidays idea. An ideal way to get bigger-boat experience in warm weather and a friendly and easy-going environment with a seasoned escort crew following you around to sort out any difficulties. I would also suggest a modicum of theory and (at least) at Day Skipper course and qualification level. The week-long practical courses in UK waters are, apart from anything else, a damn good and interesting short holiday for not much money. The prime things IMHO are nav theory and practice, chartwork, meteorology, and lights and signals. A sound grounding in these and you can cast off and go sailing. As has been said, as regards getting a boat from A to B and tying it up when you get there, you already know this and the size of the yacht really doesn't matter.

 

[ghostlymoron]

We did a competent crew course to see whether we liked sailing and I then did dayskipper theory and practical followed by a couple of flotilla holidays.
Then a friend of a friend gave us a Leisure 17 which is ideal to learn on and cheap to moor and run. (And just about big enough to live on for a few days). With what we'd learnt, we then bought a larger boat and continued to learn and sail. Just go for it!
If you're not lucky enough to have a generous friend, buy something small and cheap to start with.

 

[SimonD]

Are you sure you want a yacht? I ask because the only similarity between a dinghy and a yacht is the sails. A yacht is primarily designed to get you from A to B and then enjoy B when you've arrived. The reality is that they're not very good at this. For the vast majority of cruises, the wind is either to light, to strong or from the wrong direction. In some thirty years of yacht cruising, I could count on one hand the number of times this was not the case and we had a great sail over some distance.

Because you'll be a leisure sailor with limited time (I assume) you cannot afford to drift along at a couple of knots. You'll therefore find yourself motoring or motor sailing a lot (by which I mean 80 to 90% of the time). Either way, you can reckon on making about 5 knots for passage planning purposes. That will not get you far and spending eight hours motoring across Lyme Bay quickly loses its appeal.

Once you arrive at your destination, you'll find that yachts are designed for sailing, not lounging. Some cockpits can be made reasonably comfortable with bean bags etc. but it's not guaranteed.

You mention the option of trailing a boat to different cruising grounds (and I infer leaving it there for the season). That makes sense. We did it for a while while with a Catalina 22. It broke two cars so make sure yours is up to the job!

I don't raise these issues to put you off, but it's best to be aware of the realities of yacht cruising. After some years dinghy sailing, I started cruising with that Catalina 22 (bought because it had sleeping room for me, my wife and three small kids). We then progressed through a Jaguar 27, Westerly Tempest (our favourite boat) and Moody 35. We thoroughly enjoyed all of it but the realities finally caught up and, like many yachties, we moved to motor cruising. Our Nimbus gets us from A to B in a third of the time and is a thoroughly comfortable place to be when we arrive. Whichever way you cruise, I'm sure you won't regret it. It's life changing!