R.Y.A at it again!

[dom]

Seen many a boat, even RIB's, in difficulty when the tide has dropped (even in Solent/Cowes), leaving lines tightened under the weight of the boat, because locking hitch has made it impossible to release from cleat. Not a nice sight, seeing boat hanging, awaiting cleat to part company with hull.

I and others have explained the advantages of a locking turn and why one should be grateful if it ever tightens. What have tidal ranges got to do with this?

I'm guessing you mean that a badly moored boat will see its mooring lines come under tension as the tide falls, which will in turn see the locking hitch tighten to the point of being impossible to open. If so, it follows that you believe an OXO would normally slip under such strain, for there is no other way the hitch could otherwise tighten.

Try again #73.

So that is what you meant! In which case I guess you have a point:

If you don't understand tides and find your rib/boat swinging from the pier wall...

...then you'll be glad you don't understand knots either!

Little wonder the owners of superyachts are skeptical of the YM qualification

 

[alant]

So that is what you meant! In which case I guess you have a point:

If you don't understand tides and find your rib/boat swinging from the pier wall...

...then you'll be glad you don't understand knots either!


Little wonder the owners of superyachts are skeptical of the YM qualification

 

[RobbieW]

They wouldn't. But equally, why should a ticket designed to allow someone to sail a small yacht around safely be a shortcut to operating a sizeable commercial vessel?

Being a bit pedantic, a ticket for 35' yacht wouldnt get you a job running a commercial vessel unless it was also a sailboat. A ticket designed for a 35' motorboat might though, but I'd expect to have to demonstrate good twin engine skills and I'd also need additional STCW training/certificates to be considered.

 

[Kukri]

I am told - by someone who skippers on on a proper ticket - that almost all wind turbine jet boats are operated by people with yachtmaster certificates. A loophole is clearly being exploited. If the RYA wants to do qualifications for those intending to operate commercial vessels (or to arrange for the disposal of Russian prostitutes' bodies from superyachts[1]) it can do so, but it's a shame that it no longer thinks anyone in a boat under 30' long can do a Yachtmaster qualification.

[1] I presume this is the main responsibility of superyacht crews.

We have a friend who is a deckhand on a very big superyacht. She was Mate on a Feadship but went down to deckhand to work on the big one. Her Commercial Endorsement for 3,000gt Mate was obtained at the very same place as my son’s British second officer’s certificate - Warsash. She has had to deal with Russian prostitutes, along with ex-Presidents of the USA and Formula One World Champions, though not at the same time, and they all caught their planes home in good order. As did the chap who sent his private plane to London from Nice to pick up a particular flavour of ice cream that his children wanted.

For fun, she goes proper sailing.

 

[capnsensible]

Laugh away, my dear chap. All I can tell you is that people in the industry say they are not terribly impressed at people getting qualifications in 35' sailing yachts which they then used to command very much larger commercial craft, and that I am saddened that the RYA no longer thinks that YM is an appropriate qualification for anyone in a smaller yacht.

Its not the RYA, its the standards set by the Maritime Coastguard Agency.

If you really do know people 'in the Industry' then they will know that windfarm vessels now require Master 200. Guess what, entry into that requires Yachtmaster Ocean for 200 unlimited.

How do I know that? A guy I used to work for at a Sailing School got me involved in some training for windboat skippers when the rule changed to Master 200. His daughter herself is at that level, owns one and leases another at nearly£1 million a pop.

Soo its clear lots of people arent really aware of the commercial boating industry. If you are seriously interested, spend some time, money and effort, like lots of us have, to understand how it works by completing the online Professional Practices and Responsibilities course. Or simply spend a small ammount on the handbook. Or pin back those pink flappy things, put your prejudices to one side and sensibly engage with those who can help based on real life experiences.

Other points to ponder. A licence to skipper a vessel up to 200grt doesnt mean that the day you get your ticket, you go do it. Like anything else, continuation training to broaden your skills is required. I wont say that should be obvious, because it doesnt seem to be.

Lastly, I understand you still chafe over the guy who was told his boat was too small to take his exam on. It still is, probably best to get over that. But to suggest that the RYA 'think that that YM is an inappropriate qualification for anyone in a smaller yacht' is patently untrue.

Its all voluntary anyway unless you want to earn money from boats. For that there is a distinct path, well defined. You may wish to point that out to your sneery pal, he seems to have forgotten. :encouragement:

 

[[3889]]

As an instructor abroad have you ever had you ever been asked to show qualifications, shown them your YMI ticket, had it turned down but your ICC accepted? Or has anyone had such an experience?

I've been an RYA member for a while but have always felt that an ICC would be a bit of a waste of paper with better RYA docs to show someone. Am I over-optimistic (from experience rather than "theory")?

My YM wasn't good enough to skipper commercially in Greece - had to have an ICC.

Hang on, were we not discussing ICC? I slipped away for a few hours and its all gone off topic.

Anyway, the point I want to make is an ICC lasts for five years so a one off fee of £45 is less than £45 PER YEAR for RYA membership, not the same as suggested earlier in the thread.

Except you only need to join the RYA for one year to benefit for 5 years from their largesse with statutory qualifications.
Otherwise, I agree completely that Kafka would have been proud to author this thread.

 

[capnsensible]

Except you only need to join the RYA for one year to benefit for 5 years from their largesse with statutory qualifications.
Otherwise, I agree completely that Kafka would have been proud to author this thread.

A bit of thread drift certainly spices things up.

And what would Kafka know about Naval Knitting, the bonkers old Bohemian?

 

[BelleSerene]

Its not the RYA, its the standards set by the Maritime Coastguard Agency.

If you really do know people 'in the Industry' then they will know that windfarm vessels now require Master 200. Guess what, entry into that requires Yachtmaster Ocean for 200 unlimited.

Well I’ve only sailed past a few ‘offshore wind farms’ but requiring anything at all on the Ocean syllabus to get there seems a bit much.

 

[Sandy]

Oh dear, I and others have explained the advantages of a locking turn and why one should be grateful if it ever tightens. What have tidal ranges got to do with this?

I'm guessing you mean that a badly moored boat will see its mooring lines come under tension as the tide falls, which will in turn see the locking hitch tighten to the point of being impossible to open. If so, it follows that you believe an OXO would normally slip under such strain, for there is no other way the hitch could otherwise tighten.

Why am I guessing this? Because there are those who react to the merest suspicion of insult to the RYA by rushing from the shadows to smite down their foes with off-topic cries of "armchair admirals" and other such sanctimonious nonsense.

Now, back to that humble little knot....

Er um,,, Originally I was not taught to sail by the RYA, that came later.

The practice on my boat is no locking turns, simples. it means that everybody knows that they will always find an OXO on the cleat. If I am on another boat I will ask the skipper what they want doing. But being left handed if they want a locking turn this usually takes about double the time to do.

The armchair admiral comment was about people who are not up to date with the current qualification routes for commercial stuff.

 

[alant]

Well I’ve only sailed past a few ‘offshore wind farms’ but requiring anything at all on the Ocean syllabus to get there seems a bit much.

The master 200 is just a progression from Ocean & indicates some committment.

 

[Daydream believer]

Being a bit pedantic, a ticket for 35' yacht wouldnt get you a job running a commercial vessel unless it was also a sailboat. A ticket designed for a 35' motorboat might though, but I'd expect to have to demonstrate good twin engine skills and I'd also need additional STCW training/certificates to be considered.

Is it really that hard to run a commercial vessel?
I am certain that after a day at the helm I could put a windfarm vessel where it was wanted & the rest is just standard procedures that most people with experience of sailing know anyway
As for super yachts,( smaller ones at least) most of it is how to organise a crew that is just people skills so if one has run a large group of people then it would come naturally. One needs some mechanical knowledge,( bigger yachts have mechanical engineers anyway) Seamanship knowledge etc but nothing out of this world.
The hardest job would be keeping the owner & guests happy, catering for their needs; which is nothing to do with actual boat handling
Steering a b..dy boat is not rocket science is it?

 

[capnsensible]

Is it really that hard to run a commercial vessel?
I am certain that after a day at the helm I could put a windfarm vessel where it was wanted & the rest is just standard procedures that most people with experience of sailing know anyway
As for super yachts,( smaller ones at least) most of it is how to organise a crew that is just people skills so if one has run a large group of people then it would come naturally. One needs some mechanical knowledge,( bigger yachts have mechanical engineers anyway) Seamanship knowledge etc but nothing out of this world.
The hardest job would be keeping the owner & guests happy, catering for their needs; which is nothing to do with actual boat handling
Steering a b..dy boat is not rocket science is it?

Brilliant! Thats the best post ever to demonstrate why global maritime authorities insist on proffessional qualifications!

Flying an airliner? Doddle, all you gotta do is sit at the front and get the cabin crew to give you coffee.

Doctor? All you gotta do is give sikkos some pills......

 

[BelleSerene]

Is it really that hard to run a commercial vessel?
I am certain that after a day at the helm I could put a windfarm vessel where it was wanted & the rest is just standard procedures that most people with experience of sailing know anyway

+1. Of course, mine is an unqualified opinion as I don’t ferry people to wind farm platforms and I only hold a YM Offshore (sail) ticket. But surely common sense says by all means insist on a higher degree of boat control than a general qualification requires - you do have to land humans on a fixed platform in pitching seas - but to require the Ocean syllabus as any part of the route to it is just qualification for qualification’s sake, as it entails zero boathandling skills and the wind farm role requires zero astronav/ ocean weather pattern/ long-term crew management. I await a qualified opinion with interest...

 

[Daydream believer]

Brilliant! Thats the best post ever to demonstrate why global maritime authorities insist on proffessional qualifications!

Flying an airliner? Doddle, all you gotta do is sit at the front and get the cabin crew to give you coffee.

Doctor? All you gotta do is give sikkos some pills......

Well come on then!!
What is so difficult--
We are not flying a plane Nor, god forbid, treating you for the !!!!!
Just because you are in awe does not mean that we all have to be

 

[dom]

Brilliant! Thats the best post ever to demonstrate why global maritime authorities insist on proffessional qualifications!

Flying an airliner? Doddle, all you gotta do is sit at the front and get the cabin crew to give you coffee.

Doctor? All you gotta do is give sikkos some pills......

Perhaps this is a perfectly good post to demonstrate delusional aggrandisation of YM and other RYA qualifications!

Aside from obvious difference in entry requirements, oversight, time, and money; hire a professional pilot trained and ticketed to fly an A350, then off he/she goes. Same applies to say an orthopedic surgeon.

By comparison, hire a YM, as some unfortunate Jersey boatowner recently did (discussed on mobo forum) and as the owner of the sunken vessel subsequently found out, his 'captain' had never captained a night passage before, according to the official inquiry that is.

I would say the plight of both the boatowner and his captain (now exposed to a negligence claim) raises legitimate questions about perceptions of the level of a YM ticket.

Similarly, questions about the RYA's drift towards commercial practices and whether it is leaving some of its members behind are entirely legitimate.

Not necessarily complaints at this stage, just questions. It would be interesting to hear the RYA's response as it usually has something sensible to say.

 

[dom]

The practice on my boat is no locking turns, simples. it means that everybody knows that they will always find an OXO on the cleat. If I am on another boat I will ask the skipper what they want doing. But being left handed if they want a locking turn this usually takes about double the time to do.

The armchair admiral comment was about people who are not up to date with the current qualification routes for commercial stuff.

Agreed, many ways valid ways to do things, though you'll have to help me understand the point about the swinging rib.

If the armchair admiral comment was directed elsewhere on this paint-balling thread, then apologies :ambivalence:

 

[shan]

Uncanny how the cost of an ICC works out exactly the same as RYA membership, though.

That's a bit like comparing an apple with a banana. The ICC is valid for several years. Membership fees are annual, so the cost is not really the same.

 

[capnsensible]

Well once again on these threads, its clear that some people have a b̶u̶g̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶ somewhat different view of the value of the connection of the RYA with the general public, what it does and how it goes about its business.

And that pilots never crash and surgeons never loose anyone on the operating table.

And that any joe (or Achmed!) can jump on any boat and go off into the yonder.

And that proffessional sailing qualifications are a waste of time and money.

If anyone is seriously interested in what goes on, do try looking up the requirements to qualify as a Yachtmaster Offshore, a Master 200grt, and the commercial endorsement.

You may be surprised.

As Ive said twice Im very happy to help with any stuff I know about regarding training to be a leisure or professional sailor. But for those with the bug, your questions mebbe better adressed to the RYA directly.

The gaffer is Richard Falk, he will always be pleased to answer your queries and is easy to find on the RYA website.

It would be helpful I think if anyone does bother to ask him 'searching questions' you could post the response on here and perhaps lay to rest some of these recurrent misunderstandings! :encouragement:

 

[Blue Sunray]

By comparison, hire a YM, as some unfortunate Jersey boatowner recently did (discussed on mobo forum) and as the owner of the sunken vessel subsequently found out, his 'captain' had never captained a night passage before, according to the official inquiry that is.

Perhaps not the best example as that official report was up there with Blair's dodgy dossier in terms of accuracy.

 

[alant]

Is it really that hard to run a commercial vessel?
I am certain that after a day at the helm I could put a windfarm vessel where it was wanted & the rest is just standard procedures that most people with experience of sailing know anyway
As for super yachts,( smaller ones at least) most of it is how to organise a crew that is just people skills so if one has run a large group of people then it would come naturally. One needs some mechanical knowledge,( bigger yachts have mechanical engineers anyway) Seamanship knowledge etc but nothing out of this world.
The hardest job would be keeping the owner & guests happy, catering for their needs; which is nothing to do with actual boat handling
Steering a b..dy boat is not rocket science is it?

Try it then.