R.Y.A at it again!

[Graham376]

I would say the plight of both the boatowner and his captain (now exposed to a negligence claim) raises legitimate questions about perceptions of the level of a YM ticket.

My concern is how did he obtain a qualification without having done the necessary night passages and pilotage and being tested during the exam, rather than questioning the validity of the qualification.

Did he cross someone's palm with silver as sometimes happens with bent postal/on-line qualifications?

 

[Twhitt]

Two separate issues really. I'm also an RYA instructor and have delivered, and of course received, training in many different organisations outside of sailing. The RYA is up there with the best, I believe.
However, Birdseye's complaint is wholly justified. The ICC is a legal requirement in many cases and it is inappropriate for the RYA to be the sole issuing authority (for sail boats) and use that monopoly as a device to leverage its membership. No different, in principle, to Ryanair having responsibility for issuing passports then offering its customers a discount.

Hey, you don't have to join the RYA to get the certificate, you can just pay the fee!

As a RYA member the certificate is free of charge, assuming you have the relevant course certificates, so why not just join and take the benefit?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Its long irritated me that the RYA effectively force people to join the RYA if they want an ICC by making it cheaper to get an ICC that way than as non members. They are now doing the same with SRC instructors. If you want to be an instructor, you have to join the RYA. In both cases I believe they are operating as a subcontractor for an official body unlike other qualifications which they themselves award.

Doesnt seem right to me - does it to you?

Increasingly I get the impression that the RYA has morphed from an organisation of sailors looking after sailors to an organisation making a living off sailors.

I have the same issue with my local sailing association ( South African Sailing). My view is the this kind of requirement is contrary to normal consumer rights. It is certainly contrary to the South African consumer protection legislation, you need to check the UK or EU consumer protection legislation.

 

[Daydream believer]

Try it then.

I would quite like to. But not full time, as I would prefer a job with a challenge

 

[capnsensible]

I would quite like to. But not full time, as I would prefer a job with a challenge

 

[dom]

My concern is how did he obtain a qualification without having done the necessary night passages and pilotage and being tested during the exam, rather than questioning the validity of the qualification.

Did he cross someone's palm with silver as sometimes happens with bent postal/on-line qualifications?

Fair point and there have certainly been instances of YM certs being given without a proper test.

That said, according to the Port of Jersey Official Report:

"He [The skipper] holds an RYA CommerciallyEndorsed Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence (CoC) for power driven craft andsailing vessels fitted with auxiliary engines. The certificate was issued on 2nd August 2004 andrevalidated at five year intervals. The current CoC is valid until 18th February 2021. He wasexamined for and issued with a Jersey Boatmaster’s Licence, under the Boast and Surf-Riding(Control) (Jersey) Regulations 1969 on 7th August 2009."
​

And yet:

"The skipper advised that this was his first full darkness sea passage. He had returned to StHelier on two previous occasions in fading light. He also stated that he had made a numberof night time passages but on other vessels."​

http://www.ports.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/P6T2 collision and sinking Report - Nov 18.pdf

​

With so many bodies involved, one would think it would have come out in the wash if there was something amiss with his qualification.

To follow the aircraft comparison suggested above, it is hard to imagine a BA pilot coming into land at night asking Heathrow Control Tower what all the colourful lights are for!

Once again, I'm not criticizing the the RYA here, just suggesting that it would be best if everyone was aware of the limited nature of these qualifications.

 

[Graham376]

To follow the aircraft comparison suggested above, it is hard to imagine a BA pilot coming into land at night asking Heathrow Control Tower what all the colourful lights are for!

This supposed to be true - A BA pilot got lost on a complicated taxiway at a German airport and an irate controller asked if he'd been there before. Yes, he replied, twice in 1944 but we didn't land!

As far as qualifications are concerned, when seeking employment these days a bit of paper counts for more than many years of practical experience.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Fair point and there have certainly been instances of YM certs being given without a proper test.

That said, according to the Port of Jersey Official Report:

"He [The skipper] holds an RYA CommerciallyEndorsed Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence (CoC) for power driven craft andsailing vessels fitted with auxiliary engines. The certificate was issued on 2nd August 2004 andrevalidated at five year intervals. The current CoC is valid until 18th February 2021. He wasexamined for and issued with a Jersey Boatmaster’s Licence, under the Boast and Surf-Riding(Control) (Jersey) Regulations 1969 on 7th August 2009."
​

And yet:

"The skipper advised that this was his first full darkness sea passage. He had returned to StHelier on two previous occasions in fading light. He also stated that he had made a numberof night time passages but on other vessels."​

http://www.ports.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/P6T2 collision and sinking Report - Nov 18.pdf

​

With so many bodies involved, one would think it would have come out in the wash if there was something amiss with his qualification.

To follow the aircraft comparison suggested above, it is hard to imagine a BA pilot coming into land at night asking Heathrow Control Tower what all the colourful lights are for!

Once again, I'm not criticizing the the RYA here, just suggesting that it would be best if everyone was aware of the limited nature of these qualifications.

It's been done to death elsewhere but basically that report is riddled with errors and inconsistencies and not to be relied on as fact.

 

[dom]

This supposed to be true - A BA pilot got lost on a complicated taxiway at a German airport and an irate controller asked if he'd been there before. Yes, he replied, twice in 1944 but we didn't land!

I always thought this one rather smooth:

A DC-10 landing in San Jose Airport California had an end of the runway roll-out after landing with airspeed a tad high:

San Jose Tower: "American 751 heavy, turn right at the end of the runway, if able. If not able, take the Guadalupe exit off Highway 101, make a right at the lights and return to the airport!"

 

[BelleSerene]

As far as qualifications are concerned, when seeking employment these days a bit of paper counts for more than any amount of skill.

There - fixed that for you, Graham!

 

[dom]

It's been done to death elsewhere but basically that report is riddled with errors and inconsistencies and not to be relied on as fact.

The drafting was indeed poor which opened the possibility of some logical conflicts, certainly in comparison with the MAIB's normal standards.

But to dismiss its findings out of hand like that, including the inquiry's ability to reproduce comments made by the skipper to it and to document his qualifications.

That is several bridges to far!!

Edit: it would be interesting to hear from for some of the RYA Instructors how they think this state of affairs came to pass, alongside what they think could be done to prevent a recurrence and better educate the public as to the intended scope of these tickets.

 

[capnsensible]

There - fixed that for you, Graham!

Trouble is though, generally, whatever your discipline, the 'paper' is awarded when you demonstrate a level of skill to the required standard.......

 

[BelleSerene]

Thanks so

Trouble is though, generally, whatever your discipline, the 'paper' is awarded when you demonstrate a level of skill to the required standard.......

Yes, of course, Cap’n. But would you select any lawyer for specialist legal advice? After all, they all have the same professional qualification. Or would you give any task to anyone who joined your company? After all, they all passed the interview. The rest is what they have done, and with what success, since they earned their qualification.

Let’s set aside that any qualification, from law through skippership to welding, just gives a yes/no indication of whether you meet a certain threshold, and that real skill is what the better practitioners develop once they have the qualification and enter professional practice with it.

What I was referring to was our conversation that you needed an Ocean qualification (among others) to be accepted to drive a boat despatching people to and from wind farms. Firstly, Ocean skills are not actually relevant to that task, however impressive the qualification may be for what they are relevant to. Secondly, the task of safely landing people onto a fixed platform in pitching seas involves a precision of boathandling that none of the qualifications assures.

That is the triumph of qualification over skill.

 

[capnsensible]

Master 200 is required for windfarm boats. Probably Limited. Master 200 is not limited to windfarm boats. Hope this helps!

Master Officer of the Watch unlimited – no limit on area

Be at least 18 years of age
Have completed 6 months seagoing service while holding an RYA Yachtmaster Ocean or IYT Master of Yachts Unlimited certificate
Hold Either:
An RYA Yachtmaster Ocean certificate and a certificate of successful completion of a shorebased Yachtmaster Ocean course; or
An IYT Master of Yachts Unlimited
Hold a valid ENG1 (medical fitness certificate) or accepted equivalent
STCW Basic Safety Training
Please Note: The above entry requirements are not required to attend the training courses for Master (Code Vessels less than 200gt) Officer of the watch (Yachts less than 500gt) , However are required to apply for your Notice of Eligibility (NoE) and sit the final CoC Oral Examination. Full details can be found on the MCA Oral Examination Form MSF 4343.

For full Training and Certification Guidance of the UK requirements of Deck Officers on Large Yachts (over 24m) please refer to MSN 1858.

Or be a Daydream Believer!

 

[Blue Sunray]

The drafting was indeed poor which opened the possibility of some logical conflicts, certainly in comparison with the MAIB's normal standards.

But to dismiss its findings out of hand like that, including the inquiry's ability to reproduce comments made by the skipper to it and to document his qualifications.

That is several bridges to far!!

Edit: it would be interesting to hear from for some of the RYA Instructors how they think this state of affairs came to pass, alongside what they think could be done to prevent a recurrence and better educate the public as to the intended scope of these tickets.

Rather than cluttering up this thread going over ground that has already been pretty comprehensively discussed why don't read through the original thread?

 

[Daydream believer]

Master 200 is required for windfarm boats. Probably Limited. Master 200 is not limited to windfarm boats. Hope this helps!

Or be a Daydream Believer!

I fully accept that one needs to be qualified to demonstrate to a potential employee that they can do a particular task. I just pointed out that the task itself is not necessarily that onerous. It should not be that hard to operate a windfarm boat if one has the can-do attitude & the right practical mindset. It is not rocket science.

After I sold my business, I worked, self employed, for a company employing 4000+ people. One day someone pointed out that I was the most "qualified" person in an office of 400 people & possibly most of the others.
That did not mean that some of those with lesser, or no qualifications, could not do the tasks similar to mine on a day to day basis. Sometimes better than me.( Mind you some degree level types were pathetic)
It just meant that I got paid more.

 

[capnsensible]

DB I see where you are coming from. But I hope you appreciate that for quite a few specific jobs, there is a legal requirement to have been examined and certified to a set standard.

Sticking with boaty for the moment, there are minimum manning standards required for all commercial vessels. Wonder how many people on here realise for example that Fishing boats Skippers, Engineers and Crew need a standard of certification? Not many, I reckon.

Seafaring is one of the professions (small p, mostly) where in order to attain a position, it is necesssary that they are experienced enough and good enough to pass an assessment. Good enough to pass, means much better with more experience. But you gotta be good to start with.

Being in the sailing training Bizz, what I am seeing is that the bar at the YM level is being raised and Commercial Qualifications more involved and subject to revalidation. That may indeed be at the heart of the OP drip. All Instructors, Practical and Shorebased are now required to revalidate. Weeds out the not so good or the less interested and mandates that the good ones continue to be good but must be a member of their overseeing organisation.

Hopefully this may explain this qualification thing a bit, it wasnt that far off to mention Pilots (need to get and keep qualifications up to date in order to work). Surgeons too. Perhaps its just a different world to to the one a lot of people are used to.

 

[dom]

Rather than cluttering up this thread going over ground that has already been pretty comprehensively discussed why don't read through the original thread?

To which I would say, why not give up introducing endless irrelevancies and try to finally address some of the quite straightforward questions in hand?

 

[dom]

Being in the sailing training Bizz, what I am seeing is that the bar at the YM level is being raised and Commercial Qualifications more involved and subject to revalidation. That may indeed be at the heart of the OP drip. All Instructors, Practical and Shorebased are now required to revalidate. Weeds out the not so good or the less interested and mandates that the good ones continue to be good but must be a member of their overseeing organisation.

Hopefully this may explain this qualification thing a bit, it wasnt that far off to mention Pilots (need to get and keep qualifications up to date in order to work). Surgeons too. Perhaps its just a different world to to the one a lot of people are used to.

As a matter of interest, how do you square this with the aforementioned Jersey incident? Or is this to be dismissed as an exception, or perhaps incompetence on the part of the Ports of Jersey Authority?

 

[capnsensible]

As a matter of interest, how do you square this with the aforementioned Jersey incident? Or is this to be dismissed as an exception, or perhaps incompetence on the part of the Ports of Jersey Authority?

I kinda remember it as a thread on here. As I recall, the Qualified Skipper made a mistake. Quite rightly, it was analysed to bits and blame spread all over the place, perhaps some people may learn from it.

But I reckon that a Skipper made a mistake.