R.Y.A at it again!

[dom]

I kinda remember it as a thread on here. As I recall, the Qualified Skipper made a mistake. Quite rightly, it was analysed to bits and blame spread all over the place, perhaps some people may learn from it.

But I reckon that a Skipper made a mistake.

Clearly he made mistakes, many mistakes; no argument there. But before floating him down the Suwannee River, is it possible that at least some of these reflect inadequacies in the RYA training syllabus? And how does somebody earn a multiply validated YM ticket having never skippered a night time passage?

 

[capnsensible]

That bit just doesnt do it for me. Part of his assesment will have been to demonstrate to the Examiner his ability to conduct a passage safely at night. If the examiner wasnt happy, he would not have passed. Probably near half of candidates dont on first go, for one reason or another.

Suppose its like a Car Driving test, you pass, drive round the corner and crash. Not really anyones fault but the driver who made a mistake, I reckon.

Should add he was in a pilotage situation, which is a big part of the exam.

 

[dom]

That bit just doesnt do it for me. Part of his assesment will have been to demonstrate to the Examiner his ability to conduct a passage safely at night. If the examiner wasnt happy, he would not have passed. Probably near half of candidates dont on first go, for one reason or another.

Suppose its like a Car Driving test, you pass, drive round the corner and crash. Not really anyones fault but the driver who made a mistake, I reckon.

Maybe, but forgive me for being a tad slow to blame the man. So can I clarify, does the ability to “demonstrate to the Examiner his ability to conduct a passage safely at night” require an actual nighttime passage as part of the exam?

 

[capnsensible]

Thats a definite yes for the pilotage part of the passage. Wherever possible, it should be in confined waters that the candidate is unfamiliar with.

 

[dom]

Thats a definite yes for the pilotage part of the passage. Wherever possible, it should be in confined waters that the candidate is unfamiliar with.

Okay, that’s interesting and eminently sensible I might add, but not wanting to be obtuse here, how do you suppose the Jersey circumstances arose?

 

[capnsensible]

Skipper made a mistake!

Really, without looking at it in any detail, thats my offer. Im comfortable enough in my own skin for example, that if I doink a boat in a pilotage situation, its only ever going to be my fault.

 

[capnsensible]

Ok, had another look and its there, isnt it. The accident happened in November 2017. He passed his YM in August 2004 and Jersey Boatmaster licence in August 2009. This not a fresh out of the box Mariner.

The Skipper has had extensive sailing experience on a variety of different sailing and auxiliary
powered vessels in the capacity of deck hand, First Mate and Master. Ship sizes ranged from
30m to 75m LOA.


So. Skipper (experienced) made a mistake!

This too may be relevant:

He stated
that he was aware of the Ruaudiere Green Lateral Buoy as he had used this channel hundreds
of times. He states he did not see the buoy or the light it was exhibiting.

 

[capnsensible]

So sorry Skip if you are reading this, there but for the Grace and all, hope you are back on the water!

 

[dom]

Skipper made a mistake!

Really, without looking at it in any detail, thats my offer. Im comfortable enough in my own skin for example, that if I doink a boat in a pilotage situation, its only ever going to be my fault.

No question that he did; in fact according to the inquiry he made a litany of mistakes, the same way an inadequately trained pilot would surely do. That’s why I was interested in how he got his ticket in the absence of an explicit night time test.

To my surprise, no mention was made, including by the RYA, that this indicated or implied any procedural breach.

BTW prospective airline captains are required to make multiple night time landings inc tests where all sorts of simulated complications and failures routinely occur.

 

[capnsensible]

That’s why I was interested in how he got his ticket in the absence of an explicit night time test.
.

I hope thats cleared up for you now then. You may find that because he is such a helpful guy, a PM to John Morris, a very experienced Examiner, may shed more light on the conduct of the exam for you.

(Hope Im not being presumptious there!)

 

[Nick Costen]

Don't you think that the most plausible reading of the text is that while he had plenty of night-time experience (both locally and elsewhere), the point of the sentence is to note that it was the first time he'd taken that particular boat out at night? Hence while he knew the boat and the waters, he wasn't familiar with any peculiarities about the lights on board and so on?

 

[dom]

I hope thats cleared up for you now then. You may find that because he is such a helpful guy, a PM to John Morris, a very experienced Examiner, may shed more light on the conduct of the exam for you.

(Hope Im not being presumptious there!)

Perhaps it’s getting late, but no, I cannot understand how an RYA YM was awarded without a single nighttime test under command.

And curiously, upon the emergence of this fact nobody, including the RYA, has suggested that this on the face of it indicates a procedural breach.

I guess at the end of the day every qualification must be taken for what it is.

 

[dom]

Don't you think that the most plausible reading of the text is that while he had plenty of night-time experience (both locally and elsewhere), the point of the sentence is to note that it was the first time he'd taken that particular boat out at night? Hence while he knew the boat and the waters, he wasn't familiar with any peculiarities about the lights on board and so on?

S2.13 states:
“The skipper advised that this was his first full darkness sea passage. He had returned to St Helier on two previous occasions in fading light. He also stated that he had made a number of night time passages but on other vessels.”

The report also notes that the skipper’s unfamiliarity with the the vessel’s surface drives led him to navigate the boat in an unsafe bows up attitude. Naturally, one cannot blame the RYA for failing to teach subtle shaft/surface-drive handling differences.

 

[dom]

Maybe, but forgive me for being a tad slow to blame the man. So can I clarify, does the ability to “demonstrate to the Examiner his ability to conduct a passage safely at night” require an actual nighttime passage as part of the exam?

Thats a definite yes for the pilotage part of the passage. Wherever possible, it should be in confined waters that the candidate is unfamiliar with.

Just happened to speak with the owner of a south coast marina - neither a YM nor Instructor - and he tells me that examiners conducting the Yactmaster exam typically leave the marina at around 9am with one or two people being tested and are generally back alongside around 4pm, followed by chat, wrap-up, and leave.

Something seems amiss. I'm sure that some instructors, including you, conduct thorough exams. Also I see loads of saily students with those night flashcards and for some reason every one of them seem to know about submarines' yellow intermittent flashing thingy!

But as you imply, real pilotage at night can be confusing and the difference between those who know the theory and those who can do it ...well it's night and day (groan :ambivalence

Might be worth popping an email off to RYA at the w/e to get it from the horse's mouth.

 

[jordanbasset]

S2.13 states:
“The skipper advised that this was his first full darkness sea passage. He had returned to St Helier on two previous occasions in fading light. He also stated that he had made a number of night time passages but on other vessels.”

The report also notes that the skipper’s unfamiliarity with the the vessel’s surface drives led him to navigate the boat in an unsafe bows up attitude. Naturally, one cannot blame the RYA for failing to teach subtle shaft/surface-drive handling differences.

Seems very clear

 

[alant]

Just happened to speak with the owner of a south coast marina - neither a YM nor Instructor - and he tells me that examiners conducting the Yactmaster exam typically leave the marina at around 9am with one or two people being tested and are generally back alongside around 4pm, followed by chat, wrap-up, and leave.

Something seems amiss. I'm sure that some instructors, including you, conduct thorough exams. Also I see loads of saily students with those night flashcards and for some reason every one of them seem to know about submarines' yellow intermittent flashing thingy!

But as you imply, real pilotage at night can be confusing and the difference between those who know the theory and those who can do it ...well it's night and day (groan :ambivalence

Might be worth popping an email off to RYA at the w/e to get it from the horse's mouth.

Anyone on a YM course, gets night passages to do, bit more difficult in mid-summer, so can't believe he hasn't done any.

 

[Daydream believer]

Anyone on a YM course, gets night passages to do, bit more difficult in mid-summer, so can't believe he hasn't done any.

The qualifying passages includes night sailing as well as does it not.
Presumably one can just turn up & take the exam- Is there any reason one cannot, provided one has done the qualifying passages beforehand?

 

[dom]

Anyone on a YM course, gets night passages to do, bit more difficult in mid-summer, so can't believe he hasn't done any.

Agree, it's clearly part of the prep.

But my question was, is it part of the test? I don't think it is.

If I'm right, and very happy to be corrected, it seems strange that in the RYA's own words: "Offshore is competent to skipper a cruising yacht on any passage during which the yacht is no more than 150 miles from harbour."

 

[BelleSerene]

Presumably one can just turn up & take the exam- Is there any reason one cannot, provided one has done the qualifying passages beforehand?

Yes, you can; that's what I did. The schools like to hide the fact, making out you have to do a course with them first, or to do a theory 'exam' in return for loadsamoney. (in fact, the practical examiner does the one that matters while it's just you, him, the cockpit and the stars). Just book a YM Offshore examiner on the RYA website. Costs about £140. Specify your boat and location and provide certain of the info. The rest of the qualifying info, they check first thing when you meet onboard. They'll know if you are bullshitting.

[Edit:] here it is:
https://www.rya.org.uk/training-support/Documents/Exam_application.pdf
https://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/exams/Pages/yachtmaster-offshore.aspx​

Mine was mid-morning until around midnight. Certainly enough for a few hours' night sailing (particularly as dusk turned into RYA-induced fog).

I do wonder if the examiner Dom's colleagues saw arriving back in port in the afternoon was actually examining Dayskipper candidates and not YM? Perhaps an actual examiner such as JM will come along to inform us.

 

[mm42]

I’ve just done my YM Offshore Power, back in November. Whilst I can only speak for my experiences we definitely did lots of night work, we got back from the first day at 2100, which in late November meant we’d been out for over 5 hours of darkness.

We definitely knew we’d been examined too, with 4 students in the boat any time you sat down and thought you could catch your breath after an exercise the examiner would sidle up with something else to do, a synoptic chart or a video of a vessel’s lights for you to identify. It was non stop for 2 days.