R.Y.A at it again!

[alant]

I must just have been lucky over the past thirty-eight years of using them, because I have never once had one tighten up. Perhaps your technique could be improved? Are you putting on enough normal turns first?

OXO is exactly that, OXO.
One turn around cleat, crisscross on cleat, then another turn on cleat, no need for a locking hitch.
IMO, more than one initial turn, overloads the cleat, almost making it mandatory to secure by locking.
I do not like having any line, which I might have difficulty releasing when needed, with oxo I have a tail quickly able to allow that.

 

[Praxinoscope]

That what membership fees are for. Does the RYA provide training, information and legal advice to non-members?

Maybe I’m thick but don’t really see the point of your post, there’s no such thing as a free lunch so if RYA charge for something to non members but offer it free or at a reduced rate to members where’s the problem. If some other organisation issued the ICC I’m sure it would still cost as much if not more.

 

[BelleSerene]

Far more dangerous is the custom of using mooring line loops made with bowlines. Under tension , quite hard to release. Use a round turn and two half hitches every time.

Why would a bowline on a mooring line be under tension once you’ve release the other end? If you have used one rope for one job, it’s not a problem. If you haven’t, there’s your problem and it was your choice to restrict your ability to adjust your mooring.

As for the lines ’twixt boat and dock, my breast lines tend to be bowlined aboard, lassoed around the pontoon cleat and OXOed back on board, without leaving the boat. The only time that bowline can be under tension is when you want it to be - when it’s doing its job.

Also from aboard, a bowline on each spring gets dropped over a pontoon cleat and OXOed to bow or stern. Again, the only time it can be under tension is when it’s doing its job. On departing, they are released from aboard and flicked off the pontoon cleat from aboard. No need to leave the boat until she’s secured, and all adjustments to how she lies are made from aboard.

All this knitting that people do with long lines doing multiple jobs just cripples you when you want to adjust the mooring or depart with a tide or strong breeze.

 

[dom]

OXO is exactly that, OXO.
One turn around cleat, crisscross on cleat, then another turn on cleat, no need for a locking hitch.
IMO, more than one initial turn, overloads the cleat, almost making it mandatory to secure by locking.
I do not like having any line, which I might have difficulty releasing when needed, with oxo I have a tail quickly able to allow that.

Quite, but if OXO plus a locking hitch jams; thank goodness the hitch was there!!

Also stops the last ‘O’ being inadvertently loosened by someone walking along the pontoon, running another line beneath yours, a dog taking a leak, or whatever

 

[duncan99210]

BSAC can issue powerboat ICCs up to 10m. They charge £15 for members and £35 for non members (https://www.bsac.com/document/inter...nce-application-form/icc-application-form.pdf). The only other body able to issue ICCs in UK is IYT but I couldn’t easily find how much they charge: they’re also putting a bit of scare tactics into their blurb about ICCs, suggesting that some companies will only accept an ICC when its held in addition to one of their other qualifications.... https://www.iytworld.com/courses/international-certificate-of-competency-icc/.

So, the RYA doesn’t have a monopoly on the ICC and their charges don’t seem too excessive. At least they don’t seem to be telling you that you need more than an ICC when heading off on a sailing holiday overseas.

 

[JumbleDuck]

OXO is exactly that, OXO.
One turn around cleat, crisscross on cleat, then another turn on cleat, no need for a locking hitch.

Interesting. My crew was taught - by RYA instructors - to do OOXXOO. I see from the RYA website that they got it wrong.

IMO, more than one initial turn, overloads the cleat, almost making it mandatory to secure by locking.

I can't see how adding turns adds to the load.

I do not like having any line, which I might have difficulty releasing when needed, with oxo I have a tail quickly able to allow that.

And I prefer to have important lines secure, and not too easily releasable. Horses for courses.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Maybe I’m thick but don’t really see the point of your post, there’s no such thing as a free lunch so if RYA charge for something to non members but offer it free or at a reduced rate to members where’s the problem. If some other organisation issued the ICC I’m sure it would still cost as much if not more.

The suggestion was that the RYA needs to raise money to provide services to members. Many organisations do that with membership fees.

 

[LittleSister]

All this knitting that people do with long lines doing multiple jobs just cripples you when you want to adjust the mooring or depart with a tide or strong breeze.

I, too, loathe that sort of thing, but couldn't avoid it when I had just, e.g., a single forward cleat (serving both sides), and a stern cleat either side.

With my 'new' boat I have fulfilled a lifelong dream of having centre cleats! My joy would be unalloyed, but for still having only a single forward cleat. :ambivalence:

 

[penberth3]

I can't see how adding turns adds to the load.

I guessed "overloaded the cleat" meant "overfilled the cleat"

 

[Daydream believer]

Because they are regularly used by much heavier boats than 5 tonne boat.

P.S. Locking turns are banned on my boat. If I find a locking turn the fine is a bottle of Highland Park 12 year old, two and it is a bottle of their 18 year old. I'm not that keen on their 18 year old and just now and then need to try it again.

With due respect, I cannot agree
It is nothing to do with the load applied by the owner's boat. it is the visiting boat's rope cutting the underside of the inflatable buoy as it "nips" it causing a leak so it gradually sinks & the real owner loses their mooring.
Before you say it does not happen I used to look after 84 moorings (& still sell mooring tackle )& have seen it a number of times. I have lost my own 3 times due to visitors & a training yacht doing it-- As seen by residents on the shore-
Saying that one should only do it to solid is not helpful if you cannot tell the difference between round inflatable & solid when sailing up to them. Having made the decision to moor, many tend not to turn away anyway.

Finally- All my cleats finish with a locking turn - & why not?

 

[alant]

Quite, but if OXO plus a locking hitch jams; thank goodness the hitch was there!!

Also stops the last ‘O’ being inadvertently loosened by someone walking along the pontoon, running another line beneath yours, a dog taking a leak, or whatever

Ah, I never use OXO on a pontoon cleat, their use is onboard end only.
Any other user of the pontoon cleat someone might have used oxo on, would probably use a loop, which would tighten around your line, making it more secure. However, the adjustment of a mooring line IMO, is best done from onboard, so why would you use oxo onshore for that purpose?

 

[alant]

Interesting. My crew was taught - by RYA instructors - to do OOXXOO. I see from the RYA website that they got it wrong.



I can't see how adding turns adds to the load.



And I prefer to have important lines secure, and not too easily releasable. Horses for courses.

More than one 'O', means less room for the 'X' & final 'O' to grip around the cleat.
As already stated, any mooring line is best adjusted onboard. I have moored vessels up to 300 tons (with 700 tons 'cargo') using OXO at the ship end & never lost one yet due to insecurity.

 

[alant]

I guessed "overloaded the cleat" meant "overfilled the cleat"

Yes.

 

[alant]

With due respect, I cannot agree
It is nothing to do with the load applied by the owner's boat. it is the visiting boat's rope cutting the underside of the inflatable buoy as it "nips" it causing a leak so it gradually sinks & the real owner loses their mooring.
Before you say it does not happen I used to look after 84 moorings (& still sell mooring tackle )& have seen it a number of times. I have lost my own 3 times due to visitors & a training yacht doing it-- As seen by residents on the shore-
Saying that one should only do it to solid is not helpful if you cannot tell the difference between round inflatable & solid when sailing up to them. Having made the decision to moor, many tend not to turn away anyway.

Finally- All my cleats finish with a locking turn - & why not?

Read previous comments.

 

[Birdseye]

BSAC can issue powerboat ICCs up to 10m. They charge £15 for members and £35 for non members (https://www.bsac.com/document/inter...nce-application-form/icc-application-form.pdf). The only other body able to issue ICCs in UK is IYT but I couldn’t easily find how much they charge: they’re also putting a bit of scare tactics into their blurb about ICCs, suggesting that some companies will only accept an ICC when its held in addition to one of their other qualifications.... https://www.iytworld.com/courses/international-certificate-of-competency-icc/.

So, the RYA doesn’t have a monopoly on the ICC and their charges don’t seem too excessive. At least they don’t seem to be telling you that you need more than an ICC when heading off on a sailing holiday overseas.

The bit that irritates me is the way that organisations like the RYA , and you can include the RNLI , the AA, the RAC, and even the likes of SAGA, start off as small non profit organisations helping members and morph over the years into commercial organisations run by career conscious "professional" managers intent on growing income and profit at the expense of the members. Other examples are the big charities who end up with "management structures" and big overheads.

When I moaned to the RYA about their approach what I got was " Professionals in many fields are required to be a permanent member of their professional body and pay significant amounts of money on an annual basis to do so.".

We used to do low cost RYA cert training at our club with unpaid instructors and as a way of helping people into the hobby. The RYA have made it non viable.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have moored vessels up to 300 tons (with 700 tons 'cargo') using OXO at the ship end & never lost one yet due to insecurity.

That's how Calmac ties up its ships (the Argyle is 452t deadweight) but what works for great bit commercial mooring lines doesn't necessarily scale to smaller sizes. Still, if what you use works for you and what I use works for me, we're both happy, and that's what matters.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Sorry Birdseye it’s not the RYA that has wrecked the way club members could act as instructors, but various laws brought in by successive governments combined with the Health & Safety requirements and risk of legal action if something goes wrong that has ensured that those of us who used to run these club training events have reduced our activities.

 

[JumbleDuck]

We used to do low cost RYA cert training at our club with unpaid instructors and as a way of helping people into the hobby. The RYA have made it non viable.

It seems that the RYA training programme is now designed for sea schools to make money training people who want to command small commercial vessels with a cheap alternative to a proper master's ticket. Forumites will remember the occasion a couple of years ago when they invented a completely new rule to prevent new of our number taking his YM exam in his own boat on the grounds that it was too small.

Which is fine, of course, because the RYA is a private member's club and can do what it wants, but it does seem a shame that they are moving out of small yacht stuff without anyone else - apparently - stepping in.

Me? RYA Elementary Dayboat. With tidal endorsement!

 

[capnsensible]

Well, several things here.

The days of the well intentioned amateur delivering wisdom down the club, in virtually any sport has long gone.

As Mr. P points out, the old H&s rears its head, insurance blah blah. It costs sailing schools a large chunk of their income to conform to safetry standards on the yachts and in the training centre inspections.

The RYA have had oodles of complaints about instruction and addressed it and as I said before on here, really cant win. Peoples expectations are much higher these days in standards of training vessels and quality of instruction. It can only assist those who choose to get themselves through the cruising scheme better equiped to enjoy their hobby/sport.

Is there still a place for Old Bert sat in the yacht club bar dispensing hard won wisdom? Yes of course, just dont expect to get a recognised training award signed off.

The notion about pro training, Mr. JD may be explained. Firstly, the biggest take up, by far, is the Day Skipper training, both theory and practical. Leisure sailors form the core business.

Of course as some will wish to progress, the cruising scheme will assist and clearly set the bar for those intending to operate commercial vessels. The idea that this is in some way cheating is so far off track that I actually laughed! Sorry. The standards of manning and qualifications are clearly defined for everything from a cross river ferry to Tankers. If you thing that the rule setters are wrong, why not send them an email?

Happy to continue this discussion and will explain anything that is in my experience to help with. :encouragement:

 

[dom]

Ah, I never use OXO on a pontoon cleat, their use is onboard end only.
Any other user of the pontoon cleat someone might have used oxo on, would probably use a loop, which would tighten around your line, making it more secure. However, the adjustment of a mooring line IMO, is best done from onboard, so why would you use oxo onshore for that purpose?

Your OXO shd be undisturbed in that case and consequently be fine. It can have problems though on some boats:

1. It loads up the boat cleat making it difficult to attach say two spring lines from a single side cleat.

2. When leaving the boat for a while, I prefer to attach with a loop to the boat cleat, then down to and made-off to a pontoon cleat, then back to the boat, where it is cleated again. Provides redundancy if a single line parts/chafes through.
​

Aside from this I would reiterate that the oft-quoted example of locking-hitches jamming is NEVER a reason against using such a hitch in a normal mooring critical line application. A jammed locking-hitch is simply evidence that your insurance policy worked! It did so by constricting the knot so as to increase friction and thereby prevent further slippage.

On the subject of the RYA, the "Mooring Lines" illustration with the blue rope here is plain silly. It illustrates a line finished with a locking hitch on the same side as the tail is taken back to the boat. The bight will over time tend to open and ultimately release the knot.
https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/e-newsletters/inbrief/Pages/learning-the-ropes.aspx

By the way on ships: are OXXOs, or even OXXXOs not more common?