Portuguese residency - current situation - advice needed

[nortada]

No, I want to know what will actually happen in practice rather than dismiss any potential problems out of hand. You can't deal with problems if you don't know what they are and in addition, I don't believe in breaking the laws of the country one resides in, even if it is possible.

Hi Shan,

Unfortunately, before 1/1/21, none of us know what will happen in practice, so all we can do is to take as many precautions as possible and, yes, hope for the best.

As to breaking the law in the country one resides in, I do not think Greeny, or anybody else, is suggesting the law breaking should be encouraged.

As you may be aware, in Portugal, it is not always possible to establish the law and this is further complicated by the wide practice that the authorities (who are also often unsure of the law), put their own interpretation on it and apply it accordingly. To those of us Brits, use to clearly understood, uniformly enforced, law, it can be difficult.

Just out of interest, may I ask if you have Portuguese residency?

Cheers

N

 

[shan]

I'll be applying for 'temporary residency'. I have to as I have spent more than 90 days here in the last year

 

[nortada]

I'll be applying for 'temporary residency'. I have to as I have spent more than 90 days here in the last year

Hi,

Thanks for getting back.

My understanding, you plan to register in Portugal, because you have been in Portugal for more than 3 months. The majority don’t but by the letter of the law, as with many EU countries, one is required to register if one will be in Portugal for more than 90 days - you then have 30 days to register but from experience, nothing happens if you don’t.

Don’t think the need to register is based on the number of days in country in a year; rather the length of stay (90 days) so you could make a number of short stay visits that totalled more than 90 days in a year but still not have to register. Additionally, it is not retrospective.

The lack of frontiers between Schengen countries rather makes a farce of the whole situation.

In Portugal, when you register you get residency. Not so in other EU countries (Spain).

Shan, I am sure you are aware of all of this but it could be useful for others not so fully up to speed.

Where/when do you hope the apply for residency

Best of luck,

N

 

[shan]

Hi,

Thanks for getting back.

My understanding, you plan to register in Portugal, because you have been in Portugal for more than 3 months. The majority don’t but by the letter of the law, as with many EU countries, one is required to register if one will be in Portugal for more than 90 days - you then have 30 days to register but from experience, nothing happens if you don’t.

Don’t think the need to register is based on the number of days in country in a year; rather the length of stay (90 days) so you could make a number of short stay visits that totalled more than 90 days in a year but still not have to register. Additionally, it is not retrospective.

The lack of frontiers between Schengen countries rather makes a farce of the whole situation.

In Portugal, when you register you get residency. Not so in other EU countries (Spain).

Shan, I am sure you are aware of all of this but it could be useful for others not so fully up to speed.

Where/when do you hope the apply for residency

Best of luck,

N

I have looked at the 90 days and it doesn't have to be consecutive. Apparently, the continuity of one's residence is not affected by absences shorter than 6 months, which I easily fulfil. Legally, you should register but yes, you are right in that there doesn't seem to be anyone checking. The reason I am doing this is that it will allow me relative freedom from the 90/180 day rule within Portugal. I am going to be registering in September. We fall under Conceição de Tavira so the Camara in Tavira.

 

[greeny]

No, I want to know what will actually happen in practice rather than dismiss any potential problems out of hand. You can't deal with problems if you don't know what they are and in addition, I don't believe in breaking the laws of the country one resides in, even if it is possible.

No one knows what will happen in practice as you put it. You won't know till it happens. Brexit has not changed and appears not to be changing the Portuguese tax system or the NHR system within it. The only thing changing in respect to this subject is the possibility of having your passport stamped but they've already intimated that that is not going to happen for those with residency in the country and if you have an ID card you won't even show your passport when travelling in the EU.
I also take issue with the suggestion that if you don't reside in the country for at least 183 days then you lose NHR and you're not supposed to be registered for tax or even have to pay tax. Several people I know, both in UK and Portugal work abroad and spend very little time in their taxation country but they still pay tax in that country. They don't meet the exemption rules to escape tax completely so pay tax like everyone else.
I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on much of this as my views and outlook are clearly not in alignment with yours and we've wasted enough time on it already. What will be will be.
Oh, by the way, in case you were in any doubt, I don't break or plan to break any laws in any country at any time. When and if things change I will change accordingly.

 

[nortada]

I have looked at the 90 days and it doesn't have to be consecutive. Apparently, the continuity of one's residence is not affected by absences shorter than 6 months, which I easily fulfil. Legally, you should register but yes, you are right in that there doesn't seem to be anyone checking. The reason I am doing this is that it will allow me relative freedom from the 90/180 day rule within Portugal. I am going to be registering in September. We fall under Conceição de Tavira so the Camara in Tavira.

Thanks for this, yes this is as I understand it.

Once you have registered for residency you should not have any restrictions on time spent in Portugal and post1/1/21, you will be able to use your 90/180 in other Schengen Countries.

 

[shan]

No one knows what will happen in practice as you put it. You won't know till it happens. Brexit has not changed and appears not to be changing the Portuguese tax system or the NHR system within it. The only thing changing in respect to this subject is the possibility of having your passport stamped but they've already intimated that that is not going to happen for those with residency in the country and if you have an ID card you won't even show your passport when travelling in the EU.
I also take issue with the suggestion that if you don't reside in the country for at least 183 days then you lose NHR and you're not supposed to be registered for tax or even have to pay tax. Several people I know, both in UK and Portugal work abroad and spend very little time in their taxation country but they still pay tax in that country. They don't meet the exemption rules to escape tax completely so pay tax like everyone else.
I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on much of this as my views and outlook are clearly not in alignment with yours and we've wasted enough time on it already. What will be will be.
Oh, by the way, in case you were in any doubt, I don't break or plan to break any laws in any country at any time. When and if things change I will change accordingly.

Tax residency is more than simply days spent in a country but it is the simplified view. Your primary residence and activities should take place in the country you are tax resident.
https://www.pwc.pt/pt/fiscalidade/2017/pwc-non-habitual-tax-residents.pdf

 

[Graham376]

No, I want to know what will actually happen in practice rather than dismiss any potential problems out of hand. You can't deal with problems if you don't know what they are and in addition, I don't believe in breaking the laws of the country one resides in, even if it is possible.

No-one knows what will happen in future and what EU laws may overrule Portugal. As far as travel is concerned, with no passport checks or stamping at borders once in Schengen, it's unlikely anyone will know where you are or how long you've been there unless logged in to marinas who send details to authorities..

 

[shan]

No-one knows what will happen in future and what EU laws may overrule Portugal. As far as travel is concerned, with no passport checks or stamping at borders once in Schengen, it's unlikely anyone will know where you are or how long you've been there unless logged in to marinas who send details to authorities..

No, no one knows and so I will take all the precautions I am able to instead of digging my head in the sand. I will also continue to respect the rules of the country I am in.

 

[Graham376]

I'll be applying for 'temporary residency'. I have to as I have spent more than 90 days here in the last year

Where did you find the term "temporary residence"? As far as I know, there's no such thing. Initially, 5 years residence is given to EU citizens and then permanent status is granted by application to SEF if one meets the criteria.

Don't believe everything you read on various government web sites, in practice many rules not followed.

 

[nortada]

No-one knows what will happen in future and what EU laws may overrule Portugal. As far as travel is concerned, with no passport checks or stamping at borders once in Schengen, it's unlikely anyone will know where you are or how long you've been there unless logged in to marinas who send details to authorities..

From personal experience, you are a berth holder and your boat is in that berth it’s still unlikely anyone will know where you are. Last year, we left Lagos on 25 Feb 19 and because of medical issues were unable to return until 23 Oct 19 (8 months later). Nobody knew where we were. Some were not even aware that we hadn’t been in Portugal on board all summer.

 

[Graham376]

From personal experience, you are a berth holder and your boat is in that berth it’s still unlikely anyone will know where you are. Last year, we left Lagos on 25 Feb 19 and because of medical issues were unable to return until 23 Oct 19 (8 months later). Nobody knew where we were. Some were not even aware that we hadn’t been in Portugal on board all summer.

That's fine but remember when you're out and about and visit a marina in Portugal or Spain, details are submitted to authorities so tracing is theoretically possible although highly unlikely unless on the "watch" list.

 

[nortada]

No, no one knows and so I will take all the precautions I am able to instead of digging my head in the sand. I will also continue to respect the rules of the country I am in.

I don’t think any of us are ‘digging our heads in the sand’. To the contrary we have made extensive efforts to establish what may be required in the future. To that end we have been in direct contact with both Portuguese and EU agencies.

I would venture, as a group, we have as good a handle as any (and better than most) on what might happen in the future.

As a group, the British Expats and longterm visitors on the YBW in Portugal, have worked together to try to fathom the best course through Brexit and the future, with some remarkable results.

Possibly even more important this group has literally many many years of experience of life in Portugal and the idiosyncrasies of the Portuguese, their laws and attitude to the law - very different to we Brits.

To bastardise a well known saying:- When in Portugal …………………………….

 

[nortada]

That's fine but remember when you're out and about and visit a marina in Portugal or Spain, details are submitted to authorities so tracing is theoretically possible although highly unlikely unless on the "watch" list.

Absolutely true but if your boat remains in a marina (or possibly at anchor), they know where your boat is but there is no automatic check on where you are.

Of course, if you are on a watch list ‘all bets are off’.

 

[Graham376]

No, no one knows and so I will take all the precautions I am able to instead of digging my head in the sand. I will also continue to respect the rules of the country I am in.

Not many of us who've been here for many years bury our heads and it's always amusing when newcomers tell us what we should have been doing.

 

[shan]

Not many of us who've been here for many years bury our heads and it's always amusing when newcomers tell us what we should have been doing.

I'm not a newcomer, I just have not participated in the general discussion of how things are not at all serious. I have quietly got on and I'm making my own arrangements.

 

[nortada]

I'm not a newcomer, I just have not participated in the general discussion of how things are not at all serious. I have quietly got on and I'm making my own arrangements.

But if you plan to be in Portugal or the EU post 1/1/21, it could all become very serious.??

Best of luck with your arrangements.??

 

[Graham376]

I'm not a newcomer, I just have not participated in the general discussion of how things are not at all serious. I have quietly got on and I'm making my own arrangements.

Fine but bear in mind that some of us have had a fair bit of experience so don't dismiss advice out of hand. In common with some others who post, we have property here as well as a boat and I've been married to a Portuguese for 50 years so do have a little more experience than those such as you who haven't even started the process yet but think they know everything.

 

[capnsensible]

I may be missing the point here, but isn't everything those of us who have lived away from the uk (21years for me ) know and have done just about to get blown apart in the January storm that's brewing? Don't see any harm for being prepared for that.

The casual acceptance of fellow Europeans is about to get tossed and Brits will be subject to completely different rules. If you can ask any Aussie or American sailor what it's like trying to cruise around Europe....

 

[Graham376]

I may be missing the point here, but isn't everything those of us who have lived away from the uk (21years for me ) know and have done just about to get blown apart in the January storm that's brewing? Don't see any harm for being prepared for that.

The casual acceptance of fellow Europeans is about to get tossed and Brits will be subject to completely different rules. If you can ask any Aussie or American sailor what it's like trying to cruise around Europe....

As you say, UK resident Brits coming to Europe next year will face very different rules and restrictions in common with the third country nationals you mention but I doubt there will be much change in our countries of residence for those of us already established here.