Polish Flag Registration

[Koeketiene]

Based on engine size?

It's a formula taking into account: fiscal hp of the engine, length and age of the boat.

When the amount due is less than 75 euro p/a, it's not collected.

 

[Clancy Moped]

It's a formula taking into account: fiscal hp of the engine, length and age of the boat.

When the amount due is less than 75 euro p/a, it's not collected.

Discount if you register in Ajaccio/Bastia.

 

[westernman]

Didn't France simply institute that although you could have a foreign (EU) ensign you had to comply with French registration requirements thereby making it pointless.

For french residents.

If you are a french resident and you have a boat you have to pay this tax. Even if the boat is not in France.

But they have know way currently of knowing if you have a boat which is not in France and is not french registered.

 

[billskip]

But they have know way currently of knowing if you have a boat which is not in France and is not french registered.

If the boat is in a marina somewhere and is insured, surely there is a paper trail?

 

[sailaboutvic]

If the boat is in a marina somewhere and is insured, surely there is a paper trail?

Most likely under a different flag
Polish

 

[westernman]

If the boat is in a marina somewhere and is insured, surely there is a paper trail?

How will the french know you have a boat if it is in Greece and not registered in France?
In theory if resident the owner has to pay the French tax.
But who knows if they do in practice.

I think I can probably guess.

 

[Mistroma]

If the boat is in a marina somewhere and is insured, surely there is a paper trail?

Always a risk of being caught. However, they'd need to contact a marina or insurance company and get details of clients. I don't think companies outside France would go out of their way to provide the information, even when it was legal. The trail will lead to a French owner if you can find the end of the trail. I suppose it would be easier to start with a French citizen and follow their money back to a boat. I don't know if French customs can do this easily for all their citizens. Different matter if you make it blindingly obvious and attract attention. Sifting through social media posts would probably provide lots of evidence if you are singled out for attention.

 

[Poignard]

For french residents.

If you are a french resident and you have a boat you have to pay this tax. Even if the boat is not in France.

But they have know way currently of knowing if you have a boat which is not in France and is not french registered.

French residents - so it would not apply to me. Although I have a residency permit, my principal residence is in the UK

"En application des articles 237 et 238 du code des douanes, ce droit est dû par les personnes, physiques ou morales, quelle que soit leur nationalité, qui ont leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France, et sont propriétaires ou utilisatrices d’un navire de plaisance battant pavillon étranger."

Le droit de passeport - Légisplaisance

 

[Fr J Hackett]

French residents - so it would not apply to me. Although I have a residency permit, my principal residence is in the UK

"En application des articles 237 et 238 du code des douanes, ce droit est dû par les personnes, physiques ou morales, quelle que soit leur nationalité, qui ont leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France, et sont propriétaires ou utilisatrices d’un navire de plaisance battant pavillon étranger."

Le droit de passeport - Légisplaisance

I am sure exceptions can be made

 

[billskip]

How will the french know you have a boat if it is in Greece and not registered in France?
In theory if resident the owner has to pay the French tax.
But who knows if they do in practice.

I think I can probably guess.

Well it was just a thought, its easy on here to "fly under the radar " but in reality it's not, there surely must be some French owners of high value super yachts that are under "flag of convenience "
However it's my belief if the French or any other country wants info on your world assets they have the wherewithal to know.

 

[Koeketiene]

Discount if you register in Ajaccio/Bastia.

I'm not sure you can pick which Douanes office you declare your boat.
It seems to be determined by where you keep your boat in France.
I'm on the Odet, so had to declare in Lorient.

 

[Koeketiene]

How will the french know you have a boat if it is in Greece and not registered in France?
In theory if resident the owner has to pay the French tax.
But who knows if they do in practice.

I think I can probably guess.

My understanding was that the tax only applies to French residents keeping their boat in France.

 

[westernman]

My understanding was that the tax only applies to French residents keeping their boat in France.

The law says a "French resident who has a boat".
Nowhere is the location of the boat mentioned.

 

[Portofino]

Just caught up on this interesting thread .Adding to Billskips thinking ( if I understood his jist ?) crossing all the t s and dotting every i future proofing potential officialdom hassle .

Its currently over looked at the mo in the EU , but your ( what ever flagged boat ) stays effectively permanently, more than 6 months then by the book they can now insist you follow local rules , so no change per se after 1/1/21 , just a question if a cattle prod from Brussels comes down forcing the Sp FR or what ever to apply it .

You can see why waaaaay back in 2005 I did the French permit d Mer .Already had the RYA tickets btw , this was as well as ,not instead of - because at the time the boat is / was not transient in the Cote d Azur .

The colour of rag on the stern stuck to a pole is irrelevant.


This “ British flag = British rules “ debate regularly crops up. I think you need to read Uncloss 11 and other international agreements. The coastal State can impose whatever conditions it wants on vessels NOT on innocent passage. Portugal for instance requires pleasure craft there for more that 6 months to carry the same safety equipment as Portuguese registered ones although unlike a few years ago Portugal where foreign flagged boats that are deemed resident are required to comply with local rules on equipment. New Zealand also applies local rules to foreign boats that are resident, although like Portugal it exempts genuine visitors or boats on "innocent passage".



Innocent passage is an important concept in international law as that is when coastal states apply the principle of "comity" and respect the state flags rules. However once a boat starts cruising within the waters of the coastal state, and that time exceeds 6 months then “innocent passage “no longer applies and with it comity, although in practice most states do extend comity, at least for private leisure craft. That’s the current position within the Med.


The ICC is more for short term holiday charter or indeed “innocent passage ”.

 

[Portofino]

The law says a "French resident who has a boat".
Nowhere is the location of the boat mentioned.

Seen a few red ensigns on NEW French owned boats . Princesses from the Fr dealer in La Napoule ( near Cannes ) Is this because if it’s financed / leased then effectively bank owned , presume a U.K. bank Princess work with ?
They manage to get it on U.K. part 1 for obvious reasons

Only when it’s fully paid for does 100 % ownership pass to the French guy ?
Not sure what happens to the flag after , I suspect it’s never fully paid off to maintain its U.K. bank interest ?

The grey area here I suspect is the French user , the Fr citizen with the factory backed U.K. bank loan is avoiding French taxes arguing he doesn’t technically own the boat .Even though he’s fully using it as if .

Same in Italy.Our pontoon was “ raided one morning by Guardia Finanza , three cars blue lights approx 6 Pax charging down .We we’re on 3 out of 30 so near the concrete.
We have an Italian marque boat on part 3 U.K. reg .They ignored us the only true Brits as soon as I opened my mouth .
There we’re two other reds flying on boats with Italians .I know because I have attempted to start friendly conversations thinking hey another Brit etc ….to find locals .Wondered what’s going on ? Maybe a U.K. address or using a relative?

I asked the captain ( senior guy ) on the jetty , he spoke good En “ how can this be “ referring to the part 1 ( No SSR no ) red ensign flags on Italian family boats ?New about £1M quids worth boats
He told me they we’re bank owned a British bank and perfectly legal and wasn’t interested in them .

Said wasn’t interested in us either as we’re clearly none Italian by our accents . They looked at everyones files / paperwork but not ours we were the only boat left alone .

The Captain seemed to know his onions was very precise saved wasting his guys time as they went down the jetty .

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Just caught up on this interesting thread .Adding to Billskips thinking ( if I understood his jist ?) crossing all the t s and dotting every i future proofing potential officialdom hassle .

Its currently over looked at the mo in the EU , but your ( what ever flagged boat ) stays effectively permanently, more than 6 months then by the book they can now insist you follow local rules , so no change per se after 1/1/21 , just a question if a cattle prod from Brussels comes down forcing the Sp FR or what ever to apply it .

You can see why waaaaay back in 2005 I did the French permit d Mer .Already had the RYA tickets btw , this was as well as ,not instead of - because at the time the boat is / was not transient in the Cote d Azur .

The colour of rag on the stern stuck to a pole is irrelevant.


This “ British flag = British rules “ debate regularly crops up. I think you need to read Uncloss 11 and other international agreements. The coastal State can impose whatever conditions it wants on vessels NOT on innocent passage. Portugal for instance requires pleasure craft there for more that 6 months to carry the same safety equipment as Portuguese registered ones although unlike a few years ago Portugal where foreign flagged boats that are deemed resident are required to comply with local rules on equipment. New Zealand also applies local rules to foreign boats that are resident, although like Portugal it exempts genuine visitors or boats on "innocent passage".



Innocent passage is an important concept in international law as that is when coastal states apply the principle of "comity" and respect the state flags rules. However once a boat starts cruising within the waters of the coastal state, and that time exceeds 6 months then “innocent passage “no longer applies and with it comity, although in practice most states do extend comity, at least for private leisure craft. That’s the current position within the Med.


The ICC is more for short term holiday charter or indeed “innocent passage ”.

All that is my understanding except the ICC is an internationally recognised qualification and a UK issued one is usable in countries that have not signed to and adopted the UN resolution 40. France is an example of a country that hasn't. If the country has adopted Res.40 then the ICC needs to be issued in that country for it to be acceptable to them.

 

[westernman]

Seen a few red ensigns on NEW French owned boats . Princesses from the Fr dealer in La Napoule ( near Cannes ) Is this because if it’s financed / leased then effectively bank owned , presume a U.K. bank Princess work with ?
They manage to get it on U.K. part 1 for obvious reasons

Only when it’s fully paid for does 100 % ownership pass to the French guy ?
Not sure what happens to the flag after , I suspect it’s never fully paid off to maintain its U.K. bank interest ?

The grey area here I suspect is the French user , the Fr citizen with the factory backed U.K. bank loan is avoiding French taxes arguing he doesn’t technically own the boat .Even though he’s fully using it as if .

Same in Italy.Our pontoon was “ raided one morning by Guardia Finanza , three cars blue lights approx 6 Pax charging down .We we’re on 3 out of 30 so near the concrete.
We have an Italian marque boat on part 3 U.K. reg .They ignored us the only true Brits as soon as I opened my mouth .
There we’re two other reds flying on boats with Italians .I know because I have attempted to start friendly conversations thinking hey another Brit etc ….to find locals .Wondered what’s going on ? Maybe a U.K. address or using a relative?

I asked the captain ( senior guy ) on the jetty , he spoke good En “ how can this be “ referring to the part 1 ( No SSR no ) red ensign flags on Italian family boats ?New about £1M quids worth boats
He told me they we’re bank owned a British bank and perfectly legal and wasn’t interested in them .

Said wasn’t interested in us either as we’re clearly none Italian by our accents . They looked at everyones files / paperwork but not ours we were the only boat left alone .

The Captain seemed to know his onions was very precise saved wasting his guys time as they went down the jetty .

I should have been a bit more specific. The text is:-

Le droit de passeport est dû par les personnes, physiques ou morales, quelle que soit leur nationalité, qui ont leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France, et sont propriétaires ou utilisatrices d’un navire de plaisance battant pavillon étranger.

I.e in English:-

Passport duty is payable by natural or legal persons, whatever their nationality, who have their main residence or registered office in France, and who own or use a pleasure boat flying a foreign flag.

Maybe Italian law has a loop hole in the "user" is not specified, only "owner".

 

[Tranona]

Just caught up on this interesting thread .Adding to Billskips thinking ( if I understood his jist ?) crossing all the t s and dotting every i future proofing potential officialdom hassle .

Its currently over looked at the mo in the EU , but your ( what ever flagged boat ) stays effectively permanently, more than 6 months then by the book they can now insist you follow local rules , so no change per se after 1/1/21 , just a question if a cattle prod from Brussels comes down forcing the Sp FR or what ever to apply it .

You can see why waaaaay back in 2005 I did the French permit d Mer .Already had the RYA tickets btw , this was as well as ,not instead of - because at the time the boat is / was not transient in the Cote d Azur .

The colour of rag on the stern stuck to a pole is irrelevant.


This “ British flag = British rules “ debate regularly crops up. I think you need to read Uncloss 11 and other international agreements. The coastal State can impose whatever conditions it wants on vessels NOT on innocent passage. Portugal for instance requires pleasure craft there for more that 6 months to carry the same safety equipment as Portuguese registered ones although unlike a few years ago Portugal where foreign flagged boats that are deemed resident are required to comply with local rules on equipment. New Zealand also applies local rules to foreign boats that are resident, although like Portugal it exempts genuine visitors or boats on "innocent passage".



Innocent passage is an important concept in international law as that is when coastal states apply the principle of "comity" and respect the state flags rules. However once a boat starts cruising within the waters of the coastal state, and that time exceeds 6 months then “innocent passage “no longer applies and with it comity, although in practice most states do extend comity, at least for private leisure craft. That’s the current position within the Med.


The ICC is more for short term holiday charter or indeed “innocent passage ”.

As usual a load of nonsense in here. First, registration and equipment/safety "rules" are nothing to do with the EU, but each individual state. You are correct that a state can impose its own rules overriding other state registration rules, but in reality few do, relying as you say on "comity" that is respecting the rules of other states. There is no formal limit to Innocent passage as you imply. As ever you take 6 months as some sort of magic time period when rules change and that is just not the case.

Your paragraph about Portugal and NZ is broadly correct, but AFAIK, Portugal is the only EU state that has gone down this route and officially introduced a rule regarding non Portuguese registered boats deemed resident in Portugal. In reality though it is not a big imposition as it only applies to equipment that would normally be carried on offshore boats. BTW the definition of "6 months" for boats in Portugal is different from that used for residence of people.

You are wrong about ICC and its recognition. It was never designed for "holiday" use but as an internationally recognised certificate of competence primarily for use on European inland waterways, but covered basic competences for handling a boat. It is only certification that attempts to be "international" and is recognised by many states including several important maritime ones like Greece who are not actually signatories. Not surprising that charter companies recognise it as a way of getting some confirmation of competence from charterers. Generally speaking most states are not interested in seeing evidence of competence from private boats under other flags, relying again on comity. However an ICC will be useful should a skipper be asked to show a " licence".

 

[MapisM]

They ignored us the only true Brits as soon as I opened my mouth.

The reason why GdF is normally interested just in Italians is that they are NOT looking for potential evasion of boat taxes.
In fact, contrarily to what many boaters believe, there's none at all in Italy, regardless of size.
What they are using boats for is as wealth indicators, so to speak.
If they find an Italian tenant of a leased £1M quid new boat who shows a miserable income in his tax declaration, that's when they start working.

BTW, according to IT tax rules, such folk should declare the boat as a "foreign asset" in his tax declaration, regardless of whether he owns it or he's just the beneficiary of a leasing (or whatever).
Also in this case, not because the boat per se attracts any tax - as I said there's none - but just as a (mandatory!) information for the tax authorities.
So, whoever may have "forgotten" to report the boat is already at fault for that reason alone, even before further investigations on the consistency of income with the expensive toy,

But of course, all of this only applies to individuals with IT fiscal residence, and that's the reason why they ignored you.

A recent partial exception to this are post-Brexit checks on red ensign boats, to verify the VAT status (proof that the boat was in EU before Brexit, or TI papers, etc.). Obviously, this applies to any UK registered boat regardless of the owner, and it's the same in the territorial waters of any EU Country.
But that's another kettle of fish, and by the sound of what you said they were not aiming at this type of check, but rather at what I previously said.

 

[Graham376]

Your paragraph about Portugal and NZ is broadly correct, but AFAIK, Portugal is the only EU state that has gone down this route and officially introduced a rule regarding non Portuguese registered boats deemed resident in Portugal. In reality though it is not a big imposition as it only applies to equipment that would normally be carried on offshore boats. BTW the definition of "6 months" for boats in Portugal is different from that used for residence of people.

Although Portugal introduced the rule maybe 12 years ago, I've not heard of it being enforced for visitors, for a long time. OTOH, local boats are pulled and inspected very regularly, we had safety equipment checked on two consecutive days in local dive rib.

Although the Polish flag is legal, so many are appearing just to avoid mandatory surveys and regs here, I do wonder if Policia Maritima will restart checks.