Polish Flag Registration

[Portofino]

The reason why GdF is normally interested just in Italians is that they are NOT looking for potential evasion of boat taxes.
In fact, contrarily to what many boaters believe, there's none at all in Italy, regardless of size.
What they are using boats for is as wealth indicators, so to speak.
If they find an Italian tenant of a leased £1M quid new boat who shows a miserable income in his tax declaration, that's when they start working.

BTW, according to IT tax rules, such folk should declare the boat as a "foreign asset" in his tax declaration, regardless of whether he owns it or he's just the beneficiary of a leasing (or whatever).
Also in this case, not because the boat per se attracts any tax - as I said there's none - but just as a (mandatory!) information for the tax authorities.
So, whoever may have "forgotten" to report the boat is already at fault for that reason alone, even before further investigations on the consistency of income with the expensive toy,

But of course, all of this only applies to individuals with IT fiscal residence, and that's the reason why they ignored you.

A recent partial exception to this are post-Brexit checks on red ensign boats, to verify the VAT status (proof that the boat was in EU before Brexit, or TI papers, etc.). Obviously, this applies to any UK registered boat regardless of the owner, and it's the same in the territorial waters of any EU Country.
But that's another kettle of fish, and by the sound of what you said they were not aiming at this type of check, but rather at what I previously said.

The reason why GdF is normally interested just in Italians is that they are NOT looking for potential evasion of boat taxes.
In fact, contrarily to what many boaters believe, there's none at all in Italy, regardless of size.
What they are using boats for is as wealth indicators, so to speak.
If they find an Italian tenant of a leased £1M quid new boat who shows a miserable income in his tax declaration, that's when they start working.

BTW, according to IT tax rules, such folk should declare the boat as a "foreign asset" in his tax declaration, regardless of whether he owns it or he's just the beneficiary of a leasing (or whatever).
Also in this case, not because the boat per se attracts any tax - as I said there's none - but just as a (mandatory!) information for the tax authorities.
So, whoever may have "forgotten" to report the boat is already at fault for that reason alone, even before further investigations on the consistency of income with the expensive toy,

But of course, all of this only applies to individuals with IT fiscal residence, and that's the reason why they ignored you.

A recent partial exception to this are post-Brexit checks on red ensign boats, to verify the VAT status (proof that the boat was in EU before Brexit, or TI papers, etc.). Obviously, this applies to any UK registered boat regardless of the owner, and it's the same in the territorial waters of any EU Country.
But that's another kettle of fish, and by the sound of what you said they were not aiming at this type of check, but rather at what I previously said.

Yes I get that in Italy they are tracking the capitol asset how it was acquired gathering an understanding of the individual wealth .
Never infered anything about “ boat tax “
These weren’t U.K. boat builders btw .

In the French example they were all Princesses £1-2 M worth new .
The major beneficiary being French .Can only assume the factory did a lower finance deal with a U.K. bank hence the U.K. part 1 like I said .Just curious how they got around the address ? Unless the U.K. factory / U.K. bank is used ??
Not inferring any tax avoidance for clarity just saying there’s another reason folks are flying red dusters .

VAT in 18 yrs of mobo ing in the Med been stopped 4 x by Fr Duanes 2x thus far by Italian GF , one they went through everything as we were still Italian flagged in transit and the second as mentioned ^ no one has ever enquired about VAT .You would have thought given the amount of VAT related traffic on this forum and others it was a hot potato.No so it seems .

How ever I do ( and likely others ) get your point post B there might be a up turn in VAT inspections .Nothing yet .
We do see GF and Guardia Costerie going through popular anchorages but they ignore us .
Even take a b line from the bow angle , slow down get close then spot the red duster and vier away and “ do “ a local Italian boat I assume to get numbers up , look as if they actually inspect boats ?

 

[Portofino]

As usual a load of nonsense in here. First, registration and equipment/safety "rules" are nothing to do with the EU, but each individual state. You are correct that a state can impose its own rules overriding other state registration rules, but in reality few do, relying as you say on "comity" that is respecting the rules of other states. There is no formal limit to Innocent passage as you imply. As ever you take 6 months as some sort of magic time period when rules change and that is just not the case.

Your paragraph about Portugal and NZ is broadly correct, but AFAIK, Portugal is the only EU state that has gone down this route and officially introduced a rule regarding non Portuguese registered boats deemed resident in Portugal. In reality though it is not a big imposition as it only applies to equipment that would normally be carried on offshore boats. BTW the definition of "6 months" for boats in Portugal is different from that used for residence of people.

You are wrong about ICC and its recognition. It was never designed for "holiday" use but as an internationally recognised certificate of competence primarily for use on European inland waterways, but covered basic competences for handling a boat. It is only certification that attempts to be "international" and is recognised by many states including several important maritime ones like Greece who are not actually signatories. Not surprising that charter companies recognise it as a way of getting some confirmation of competence from charterers. Generally speaking most states are not interested in seeing evidence of competence from private boats under other flags, relying again on comity. However an ICC will be useful should a skipper be asked to show a " licence".

Merely pointing out as third party none EU there’s a risk / exposure that ICC alone is not potentially enough for U.K. guys permanently keeping a boat ( let’s drop the 6 months then if you wish but I think it’s from uncloss11 ? ) in a EU state .

The thrust of my post still stands .You are conveniently missing the lack of “ transient innocent passage “ which the ICC , agree is valid .

Transient passage no problem or a 2 week charter etc . Pre brexit no problem either as with many other reciprocal arrangements kicked into the long grass .

There was a guy on here house + boat ( a rib ) on a Greek island got fined by GK authorities because he only had the ICC no GK boat licence post brexit .

Its just a matter of time .

 

[billskip]

If I get stopped I'll just say Tranona says it's ok.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Merely pointing out as third party none EU there’s a risk / exposure that ICC alone is not potentially enough for U.K. guys permanently keeping a boat ( let’s drop the 6 months then if you wish but I think it’s from uncloss11 ? ) in a EU state .

The thrust of my post still stands .You are conveniently missing the lack of “ transient innocent passage “ which the ICC , agree is valid .

Transient passage no problem or a 2 week charter etc . Pre brexit no problem either as with many other reciprocal arrangements kicked into the long grass .

There was a guy on here house + boat ( a rib ) on a Greek island got fined by GK authorities because he only had the ICC no GK boat licence post brexit .

Its just a matter of time .

A boat licence and an ICC are different, the boat licence relates to the boat and the ICC to the skipper.

 

[Roberto]

FWIW, France DAFN/Droit de passeport regularly comes under scrutiny as the total amount it provides to the State finances is below the total resource cost for its collection. Should they find it has not been paid during a check at an anchorage is one thing, I very seriously doubt they would devote any resources to trace boats owned by French residents and kept hidden abroad.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

FWIW, France DAFN/Droit de passeport regularly comes under scrutiny as the total amount it provides to the State finances is below the total resource cost for its collection. Should they find it has not been paid during a check at an anchorage is one thing, I very seriously doubt they would devote any resources to trace boats owned by French residents and kept hidden abroad.

Sums such as in boat purchase are much more likely to be flagged up by the banks.

 

[Tranona]

Merely pointing out as third party none EU there’s a risk / exposure that ICC alone is not potentially enough for U.K. guys permanently keeping a boat ( let’s drop the 6 months then if you wish but I think it’s from uncloss11 ? ) in a EU state .

The thrust of my post still stands .You are conveniently missing the lack of “ transient innocent passage “ which the ICC , agree is valid .

Transient passage no problem or a 2 week charter etc . Pre brexit no problem either as with many other reciprocal arrangements kicked into the long grass .

There was a guy on here house + boat ( a rib ) on a Greek island got fined by GK authorities because he only had the ICC no GK boat licence post brexit .

Its just a matter of time .

Why? Licencing is nothing to do with the EU and AFAIK no state requires a licence/ticket for a UK registered boat. Licensing is linked directly to state of registration so if you register your boat in another state that may have a skippers licencing implication. I expect your mysterious friend was using a Greek boat which would require a Greek licence or an ICC endorsed for that size and type of boat.

The exception is the CEVNI controlled rivers and canals and the French canals which do require a licence but the ICC specifically covers this.

There are enough restrictions and rules already without you making new ones up that don't exist.

Just to confirm that NOTHING in this respect changed post Brexit, as none of it is anything to do with the EU

 

[Portofino]

Why? Licencing is nothing to do with the EU and AFAIK no state requires a licence/ticket for a UK registered boat. Licensing is linked directly to state of registration so if you register your boat in another state that may have a skippers licencing implication. I expect your mysterious friend was using a Greek boat which would require a Greek licence or an ICC endorsed for that size and type of boat.

The exception is the CEVNI controlled rivers and canals and the French canals which do require a licence but the ICC specifically covers this.

There are enough restrictions and rules already without you making new ones up that don't exist.

Just to confirm that NOTHING in this respect changed post Brexit, as none of it is anything to do with the EU

You are defending ( for reasons only know to you ) the indefensible.
Scroll down to “ what the ICC doesn’t do “

Evidence of Competence Abroad | boating abroad | RYA

As I said once a 3 p stays over a L of time on only ICC you are knackered. Ie NOT ON TRANSIENT PASSAGE.

I think it’s 6/12 , but happy to accept semantics if you wish ,
Personally flashing my Fr permit d Mer in the EU ……I sleep happy .

Would have slept tight pre brexit with only ICC , not disputing that ,…times have changed now .Do keep up at the back !
Aside as you said “ inland water ways “ Hmm !

Oh the forumite ( not my mate btw ) based in GR was flying a red ensign under ICC = got fined post B .Because he did not have the appropriate boat GR driving licence and obviously wasn’t on innocent passage.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It depends on the country, if the country isn't a signatory to the UN resolution but accepts an ICC as proof of competence then regardless of where it's issued it is valid however if the country is a signatory in it's own right then the ICC needs to be gained and issued in that country.

 

[Portofino]

It depends on the country, if the country isn't a signatory to the UN resolution but accepts an ICC as proof of competence then regardless of where it's issued it is valid however if the country is a signatory in it's own right then the ICC needs to be gained and issued in that country.

The resolution 40 are ^ .It was for rivers Ie Danube transit .

Note none of the popular Brit infested costal Med states .

In the EU , pre 1-1-21 there was reciprocated Boat quallys .Even the RYA ICC smerged as the accepted qualifications say for Brit to keep permanently a boat in the Balearics or Greece .
Innocent passenge the higher rules of comity trump so you can move around be it river or sea across the EU .

But since U.K. leaving the EU we are now 3 P and comity still exists for us ..…….but if you exceed a certain time scale ( un closs says 6 months - the anti definition of permanent); then you are permanently based in a EU state then technically you should have there or another EU states qualifications.EU states have reciprocity.
The uk ICC was our reciprocal qually touted by the RYA .

Its worths sweet FA now post B if you permanently berth in the EU.

Baffled why you guys can’t see that ?

 

[Tranona]

You are defending ( for reasons only know to you ) the indefensible.
Scroll down to “ what the ICC doesn’t do “

Evidence of Competence Abroad | boating abroad | RYA

As I said once a 3 p stays over a L of time on only ICC you are knackered. Ie NOT ON TRANSIENT PASSAGE.

I think it’s 6/12 , but happy to accept semantics if you wish ,
Personally flashing my Fr permit d Mer in the EU ……I sleep happy .

Would have slept tight pre brexit with only ICC , not disputing that ,…times have changed now .Do keep up at the back !
Aside as you said “ inland water ways “ Hmm !

Oh the forumite ( not my mate btw ) based in GR was flying a red ensign under ICC = got fined post B .Because he did not have the appropriate boat GR driving licence and obviously wasn’t on innocent passage.

This is all nonsense. It is very clear what the ICC It is nothing to do with whether you are on innocent passage or not or whether you are 6 months in the EU or not. IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EU, or residence or whether you are a UK citizen or not. Its acceptance in specific circumstances lies entirely with state authorities. Greece is not a signatory to Resolution 40, but accepts the ICC for skippering a Greek charter boat. You don't give all the details of your friends problem. For example was his ICC endorsed for a powerboat up to 10m? Did he have transit log (a Greek requirement for non EU boats?)

You cannot use a half baked story as evidence of your warped interpretation of what the situation is. You need to know all the facts - plus you have to recognise that what "rules" there are in Greece are not always applied consistently.

Nothing has changed with respect to the ICC or boat registration as a direct result of Brexit - because Brexit was solely about leaving the single market and the customs union. How many more times do I have to say that licencing and registration is a state competence, NOT EU. I should add that Greece is currently not complying with EU law post Brexit with regard to free movement of UK flagged EU VAT paid boats and I believe this is currently being challenged at the Commission.

The reality is that thousands of people boat around the Med in EU waters and are never asked to show their "licence". It may be a requirement for boats registered in individual states, but not for visitors from other countries whether they are in the EU or not. So an Italian visiting France will not be required to show his Italian licence in the same way as a UK citizen will not. Equally a German chartering in Greece will be required to demonstrate competence in exactly the same way as a UK or American citizen.

BTW I only mentioned inland waterways because that is the origin of the ICC. There is no equivalent UN Resolution for seagoing vessels and waters as this is covered by international maritime law which has no requirement for any kind of licencing of skippers of private leisure craft as this is solely a coastal state competence. As the RYA guidance says its acceptance is is variable according to the individual state. Yes, the acceptance does change over time - but not because of Brexit.

 

[Portofino]

Why? Licencing is nothing to do with the EU and AFAIK no state requires a licence/ticket for a UK registered boat. Licensing is linked directly to state of registration so if you register your boat in another state that may have a skippers licencing implication. I expect your mysterious friend was using a Greek boat which would require a Greek licence or an ICC endorsed for that size and type of boat.

The exception is the CEVNI controlled rivers and canals and the French canals which do require a licence but the ICC specifically covers this.

There are enough restrictions and rules already without you making new ones up that don't exist.

Just to confirm that NOTHING in this respect changed post Brexit, as none of it is anything to do with the EU

If you are permanently based in a EU state then you should follow there local rules .Inc qualifications .
As I said pre B the ICC touted by the RYA was enough for the qualifications tick box .

Now UKs out of the EU that reciprocity been lost .

 

[Tranona]

View attachment 161667
The resolution 40 are ^ .It was for rivers Ie Danube transit .

Note none of the popular Brit infested costal Med states .

In the EU , pre 1-1-21 there was reciprocated Boat quallys .Even the RYA ICC smerged as the accepted qualifications say for Brit to keep permanently a boat in the Balearics or Greece .
Innocent passenge the higher rules of comity trump so you can move around be it river or sea across the EU .

But since U.K. leaving the EU we are now 3 P and comity still exists for us ..…….but if you exceed a certain time scale ( un closs says 6 months - the anti definition of permanent); then you are permanently based in a EU state then technically you should have there or another EU states qualifications.EU states have reciprocity.
The uk ICC was our reciprocal qually touted by the RYA .

Its worths sweet FA now post B if you permanently berth in the EU.

Baffled why you guys can’t see that ?

Show me any official document that said there was a reciprocal agreement on yachting qualifications between the UK and EU prior to Brexit.

That is a figment of your imagination. No such agreement ever existed.

I wonder what you are smoking

Once again Yachting registration and qualifications are nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Tranona]

If you are permanently based in a EU state then you should follow there local rules .Inc qualifications .
As I said pre B the ICC touted by the RYA was enough for the qualifications tick box .

Now UKs out of the EU that reciprocity been lost .

No it has not because it never existed.

 

[Portofino]

Show me any official document that said there was a reciprocal agreement on yachting qualifications between the UK and EU prior to Brexit.

That is a figment of your imagination. No such agreement ever existed.

I wonder what you are smoking

Once again Yachting registration and qualifications are nothing to do with the EU.

Never was one . That’s why I said earlier “ they turned a blind eye “ We are agreeing .

 

[Portofino]

No it has not because it never existed.

So if you permanently kept a boat ( U.K. red duster etc ) in say France who’s rules should you use ?
Talking flares , life rafts other paraphernalia ? .Whose rules regarding qualifications should you follow ?

Think very carefully before you answer .

Wear a U.K. hat waltz into a jet ski shop U.K. buy one head to the beach ……..need anything paper wise i mean a min legal requirement?

Repeat in say Cannes , stroll around the boat show U.K. passport in pocket + credit card .Buy a jet ski ……look over the quay …..lovely bay of Cannes then what ? Btw plenty of bateau eCole stands @ the show .

 

[billskip]

As far as I'm aware, in Spain a UK flagged boat can remain indefinitely provided that the required rules regarding matriculation tax and registration have been adhered to.
The rules regarding the user of the boat depends upon their residence status.
From what I understand is that a resident in Spain must adopt the Spanish law to use a boat.
For example if my son owns a UK flag boat and its legally permanent in Spain and he lives in UK, UK rules apply if he skipper's the boat, However if I skipper the boat Spanish rules apply as I am resident.
That is as far as I understand the simple basics.

 

[Tranona]

Never was one . That’s why I said earlier “ they turned a blind eye “ We are agreeing .

"They" if you mean the EU have nothing to do with registration or skipper licencing and qualifications, or equipment requirements". So it is not a question of turning a blind eye, simply of such arrangements ever existing. These matters are the responsibility of individual states under international maritime law.

The only thing the EU is involved with in relation to leisure craft is the RCD for product standards (which was largely written in the UK) to qualify for a CE mark and VAT in relation to free movement of goods within the EU.

So, no we are not in agreement. You make things up and talk nonsense about things of which you appear ignorant.

 

[Tranona]

So if you permanently kept a boat ( U.K. red duster etc ) in say France who’s rules should you use ?
Talking flares , life rafts other paraphernalia ? .Whose rules regarding qualifications should you follow ?

Think very carefully before you answer .

Wear a U.K. hat waltz into a jet ski shop U.K. buy one head to the beach ……..need anything paper wise i mean a min legal requirement?

Repeat in say Cannes , stroll around the boat show U.K. passport in pocket + credit card .Buy a jet ski ……look over the quay …..lovely bay of Cannes then what ? Btw plenty of bateau eCole stands @ the show .

There is no requirement for a skipper to have any qualifications to use a UK registered pleasure vessel anywhere in the world. So he can keep a UK registered boat in France indefinitely. You would follow international rules supplemented by local rules in respect of navigation. If you become resident in France and keep your boat there, even with UK registration, then you are required to meet local rules for equipment. This does not apply to non residents. This is similar to Portugal except that it is the boat that is considered resident not the owner. In neither case do these requirements cause any real difficulties.

Jet skis (PWCs) are not generally considered ships so are not required to have coastal state registration. Registration and user licencing if any is local. In the UK there is no national licencing but many local harbours have registration schemes for PWCs in order to use one. There is no compulsory training or qualifications, although the RYA offer a wide range of courses for water based activities including PWCs
RYA courses and qualifications
Pretty sure there will be regulations covering the use of PWCs in Cannes. Your task for the day is to find out what they are

If you are going to post on new topics it makes sense to do your own research first (not difficult) rather than rely on people like me to educate you. If you find it confusing quite legitimate to ask questions about specific bits you don't understand.

 

[billskip]

There is no requirement for a skipper to have any qualifications to use a UK registered pleasure vessel anywhere in the world.

I dont think I would feel safe testing that statement in practice.