Permanent Jackstays

[lustyd]

Some light reading. No comment or implication re. whether I agree.
Jackstays Yachting Monthly

If I ever feel the need to take a dump off of the bow I'll certainly heed their advice. If you're in anything close to that position drowning might be the best option. Obviously written by someone desperate to appear clever.

 

[thinwater]

Some more stuff. This guy is smart and has sailed much farther than most. Some of this may be behind a paywall. Again, not sayin' I agree with all of this, just sayin' he's a smart, very experienced guy, his system works for him, and I would be hard pressed to say he is wrong. I just won't do it.
Jacklines 1
Jacklines 2
Jacklines 3

 

[lustyd]

I love the non compliant safety lines with snap shackles instead of proper ISO compliant ones with safety gates. Really great example of someone who knows their stuff

 

[thinwater]

I love the non compliant safety lines with snap shackles instead of proper ISO compliant ones with safety gates. Really great example of someone who knows their stuff

I see Kong Tangos on the jacklines and snap shackles on the harness end. All World Sailing compliant. There is one image that shows a snap shackle on what might look like a jackline, but the caption clarifies this:
The solution was simple: we just leave the cockpit tether attached to a webbing loop we added to the bimini support as shown. Now if we can just train a certain old fart to remember to use said loop, all will be well.

The only thing I see is tethers without overload indicators. They are due for retirement.

---

Yup, smart old guy that needs to update some worn gear.

 

[noelex]

On our boat I think we are safer with centreline jackstays.

Especially in rolly conditions when sailing near downwind, jackstays along the side deck would carry a risk of ending up in the water even if we were always walking along the windward side. We could overcome this limitation with very short tethers, but this would make working around the mast difficult, especially if the attachment point was on the side deck rather than the centreline.

This will be different with every boat, but the main thing is to work out a system that works on your boat.

 

[lustyd]

All World Sailing compliant

They seem to be a US thing, it was very hard to find evidence of that here (meaning UK Internet searches) but looks like you're right. Sometimes the Internet really blocks information rather than making it accessible!

 

[Plum]

On our boat I think we are safer with centreline jackstays.

Especially in rolly conditions when sailing near downwind, jackstays along the side deck would carry a risk of ending up in the water even if we were always walking along the windward side. We could overcome this limitation with very short tethers, but this would make working around the mast difficult, especially if the attachment point was on the side deck rather than the centreline.

This will be different with every boat, but the main thing is to work out a system that works on your boat.

Agree, mine are well inboard which is certainly the best for me. There is no RIGHT answer as it all depends on the boat. Side-deck may be appropriate in some cases, inboard jackstays in others.

 

[geem]

What is the definition of a centre line jackstay on a monohull? Since we have to get around the sprayhood, the jackstays need to be on the side deck. Once forward of the sprayhood, the mast is in the way so how do you define centre line? Our shrouds are outboard, so the natural route forward is inside them so there is only one location for jackstays along the natural unhindered route forward. Does this make them side deck or centreline? We seem to be arguing about 1 or 2 ft of difference.
We route our jackstays inside the granny bars because normally we are going to the mast to reef. The windward jackstay allows me to use the leeward granny bar when tethered. Do I have centre line or side deck jackstays. And who cares if its right for my boat?

 

[lustyd]

Once forward of the sprayhood, the mast is in the way so how do you define centre line?

The boat next to me in the marina has them wrapped around the mast and then going under the self tacking track of the genoa. Obviously if they were above said track, the car would cut them pretty quickly. No idea why they're wrapped around the mast as the halyards will chafe them. As a result the owner will need to re-clip twice to get to the bow of his 35 footer. Since the boat arrived though, he's yet to remove the bubble wrap from the coachroof so I think he's safe

 

[MontyMariner]

I've used side deck jackstays on my boat for several years, but now with age and restricted agility and with it being a center cockpit pilothouse, I am rigging a V arrangement from the aft upper corners of the pilothouse, forward outside of the aft lower stay at waist height to the mast, then down the centre line to the bow. This means that I can use the short tether tail from cockpit to mast and the longer tail mast to bow. An added benefit is that when I'm stood on the pilothouse roof tying off the main, I can tether with the longer tail where previously I couldn't. It works for me.

When I come to replacing the webbing I will go over to dyneema, as it's a better off deck solution.

 

[noelex]

What is the definition of a centre line jackstay on a monohull? Since we have to get around the sprayhood, the jackstays need to be on the side deck. Once forward of the sprayhood, the mast is in the way so how do you define centre line? Our shrouds are outboard, so the natural route forward is inside them so there is only one location for jackstays along the natural unhindered route forward. Does this make them side deck or centreline? We seem to be arguing about 1 or 2 ft of difference.

I agree the system has to right for your boat. Every boat will be different.

We have some suitable jackstay attachment points on the centreline. This means that you are always tethered right at the centreline (ignoring the slight stretch in the jackstays) as you move from the stern of the boat to the bow.

On our boat the difference between a centreline and side deck attachment point is much more than a couple of feet in most places, but once again this depends on the boat.

This centreline attachment means it is impossible to fall overboard. This is a fundamental design criteria in my view. On our boat we would fail this requirement if we installed jackstays along the side deck.

 

[dunedin]

…..

This centreline attachment means it is impossible to fall overboard. This is a fundamental design criteria in my view. On our boat we would fail this requirement if we installed jackstays along the side deck.

So how do you clip on before leaving the cockpit, or do you not have any sprayhood?

 

[noelex]

So how do you clip on before leaving the cockpit, or do you not have any sprayhood?

We are a pilothouse yacht. The aluminium roof of the pilothouse functions as our spray hood and is also an attachment point for the jackstay.

 

[noelex]

One detail that is different to other boats is that our tethers are permanently attached to the jackstays. We clip the tether onto our lifejacket rather than clipping onto the jackstay.

Every boat is different, but this could also work well other boats, but I have never seen it used.

 

[thinwater]

They seem to be a US thing, it was very hard to find evidence of that here (meaning UK Internet searches) but looks like you're right. Sometimes the Internet really blocks information rather than making it accessible!

Spinlock Race clip used to be common ... until a high-profile failure in the Clipper race resulted in a death. It turns out they did not actually meet the ISO standard and that they did not meet any of the side load standards that all via ferrata clips meet now, including the Kong Tango. Kong (itally) has taken over the market for this reason, but there are other via ferrata clips that would be quite acceptable. Wichard redesigned their clip at the some time.

tether clips

 

[geem]

We clip the tether onto our lifejacket rather than clipping onto the jackstay.

We have the same set up. The inboard end of our tethers park on the mizzen shrouds. The rule is, if you step, out of the cockpit, you clip on at night. Same rules applies if it's rough during daylight hours. We don't clip on in nice weather but that's just our rule. I am sure others will feel the need to be clipped on permanently when on deck.

 

[zoidberg]

Spinlock Race clip used to be common ... until a high-profile failure in the Clipper race resulted in a death. It turns out they did not actually meet the ISO standard and that they did not meet any of the side load standards that all via ferrata clips meet now, including the Kong Tango. Kong (itally) has taken over the market for this reason, but there are other via ferrata clips that would be quite acceptable. Wichard redesigned their clip at the some time.

tether clips

Yes. I've decried the 'not invented here' casual attitude to yottie safety gear time and again over the years, and more recently in #24...

"Other activities have a well-researched/documented set of International Standards - e.g. climbing, rope access, Rescue Services, industrial fall management - and have developed good kit to meet the need. We yotties have a strong reactionary response to changing our ways and enhancing personal safety - viz. the continuing use of old Stubai-type snaplinks with hairy three-strand nylon tethers still seen on some boats "If it was good enough for my grandfather....." - all the while determinedly rejecting sound factual information that there is better. The Truth is out there!"

Thinwater has it right. There is better, and it's high time we rejected stuff that's second-rate in design and material, and insisted on kit that is up to the job.

 

[lustyd]

insisted on kit that is up to the job.

Kit does have to meet either ISO or EN standards though, that's what Thinwater was referring to and the information I eventually found showing those clips are also within the standard, just not common here.

Or are you asking for mandatory MOT type checks on all boats to ensure people follow the standards that already exist?

 

[zoidberg]

Or are you asking for mandatory MOT type checks on all boats to ensure people follow the standards that already exist?

Are you being silly now just for the sake of it?

In my view of the world, one takes responsibility for one's own actions, inactions and stupidities. Those of a 'Darwinian Award' tendency are completely free to get on with it. When someone bawls "Get out of my way! I know what I'm doing!" I tend to do just that, and stand well back.

However, when the inexperienced and vulnerable - such as children - are reliant on an ego-tripper's unfounded over-confidence and poor judgement, then questions around responsibility arise. The law recognises that.

 

[lustyd]

Are you being silly now just for the sake of it?

No I was just asking because there are already standards so it’s unclear what you think we need