Permanent Jackstays

[thinwater]

No I was just asking because there are already standards so it’s unclear what you think we need

The sailing standard for clips used for tethers was shown to be greatly inferior to the mountaineering standard for via ferrata clips, but even after a fatal failure under body weight, not tons, it was held that the existing standard was good enough. The sad thing is, the higher standard has existed for many decades.

• The sailing standard has no side load requirement. UIAA, ISO industry standards, and OSHA standards include this.
• The sailing standard has a requirements that it cannot unclip from a U-bolt (though clearly it can), but there is no gate strength requirement. UIAA, ISO industry standards, and OSHA standards include this.

In fact, there are British companies (CAMP) making good industrial and via ferrata clips, you just don't see them in sailing products. Also Salewa, Black Diamond, Petzl, and Edlerid, but Kong has the best prices and has become, for the moment, the leader in tether clips. You'll see them on Volvo boats etc.
a few via ferrata carabiners

I started using Kong Tangos 15 years ago, before they were the new industry standard, in part because of the higher standard, but largely because they are much easier to use with gloves in the winter. I also used custom tethers, because my windward/leeward jacklines, even located inboard, were too far apart for standard tethers to allow sufficient for deck access (a wide cat). Interestingly, my short tether was even sorter because the side decks were narrow. I settled on about a 30"/8' split, as I recall. Elastic was a lifesaver.

 

[MontyMariner]

Kong Tangos

They look good, any problems with them being aluminum?

 

[thinwater]

They look good, any problems with them being aluminum?

It does reduce their maximum longevity ... but if greased annually and rinsed occasionally, they will outlast the webbing part of the tether. In fact, I retired a tether this spring because the elastic was going, and the clips are still like new.

But they are SO much easier to clip and unclip. They go around 1" railings. They work with gloves. Because they are climbing gear, the nose/entrance is carefully radiused so that they do not snag on rope or webbing, something none of the old school clips coud say. In fact, most "marine" clips stink in this regard, a failing that climbers don't accept.

 

[Neeves]

They look good, any problems with them being aluminum?

I don't know them but I assume they come in pretty colours which means they are anodised. The anodising is aluminium oxide which is significantly hard and is corrosion resistant. Most Low Friction Rings are anodised aluminium using the 7075 alloy - no one ever mentions that their rings have corroded (and most LFRs will see much more use than tethers (that are generally only used in bad weather).

Thinwater will correct this if I am wrong

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Elastic was a lifesaver.

I don't think you meant this.

I assume you meant 'elastic was very useful in this application'

Or am I being pedantic?

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

I don't think you meant this.

I assume you meant 'elastic was very useful in this application'

Or am I being pedantic?

Jonathan

This a difference between US and British English. Boats do NOT have lifesavers in the US. We have PFDs or less correctly, lifejackets. But never lifesavers, not in many decades, unless you are taking about a traditional (old) round candy with a hole in the middle.

In the US idiom, what I said would not have gotten a reaction. Fun!

And if the elastic kept you from tripping over the 8' tether, then it could very easily save your life.

 

[thinwater]

I don't know them but I assume they come in pretty colours which means they are anodised. The anodising is aluminium oxide which is significantly hard and is corrosion resistant. Most Low Friction Rings are anodised aluminium using the 7075 alloy - no one ever mentions that their rings have corroded (and most LFRs will see much more use than tethers (that are generally only used in bad weather).

Thinwater will correct this if I am wrong

Jonathan

The anodized finish holds up well. The vulnerability is in the hinges, which can eventually get sticky once they wear, if they are left salted and greased. But IME, and in the experience of the market (these have been the most common type for the last decade), they last longer than the webbing they are attached to. I have not heard of them getting sticky in the real world, only in torture testing.

I wish I could figure out how to replace just the webbing, or specifically, just the elastic that failed. No such luck, I'm sure.

 

[jane444blue]

Can anyone tell me why does dyneema need to be inside a webbing tube? Is it to stop rolling if stepped on?

 

[jonathanhsm]

Can anyone tell me why does dyneema need to be inside a webbing tube? Is it to stop rolling if stepped on?

my understanding is yes stops rolling underfoot, protects from UV damage and chafe from deck contact
and clips/carabiners running up and down them.

 

[zoidberg]

my understanding is yes stops rolling underfoot, protects from UV damage and chafe from deck contact
and clips/carabiners running up and down them.

Not challenging/differing the above, but I hear 'on the ( informed ) grapevine' that coating additives now make Dyneema et al far less vulnerable to UV damage than formerly, and one very experienced rigger - at the forefront of UK textile rigging development - tells me that, while Dyneema cordage eventually 'furs up', only a small proportion of fibres are affected leaving the huge majority to carry the loads.

One should still frequently inspect all textile rigging kit - including any jackstays, guardrail lines and tethers - for more serious damage such as nicks and cuts..... as one should do with 1x19 stainless or rod.

"Think of it like a pilot's pre-flight walkaround the aircraft, each morning."

 

[GHA]

Not challenging/differing the above, but I hear 'on the ( informed ) grapevine' that coating additives now make Dyneema et al far less vulnerable to UV damage than formerly,

Marlow D12 has been around for a long time with "armourcoat" UV protection (& abrasion) coating. Been using it (mostly 5mm D12 max) for years & still looks fine, unfortunately don't have a 5T test rig to destruction test some. Which would be great fun

 

[Neeves]

So...putting it together (Post 89, 90 and 91) coated Dyneema hollow tape (aka hollow braid) would lie flat and if coated could be, more, UV resistant and maybe less prone to abrasion.

Many makers of cordage make a Dyneema hollow braid.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

Can anyone tell me why does Dyneema need to be inside a webbing tube? Is it to stop rolling if stepped on?

That was the original idea of Annapolis Performance Sailing. Just that simple.

But it turns out it's a bit more complicated than that. I've been running tests on difference surfaces wearing different shoe. I'm not done, but a few thoughts:

• A fat rope, anything over 3/8" (strong enough to meet the requirements) rolls like crazy.
• Dyneema is much small, flattens when you step on it, and on smooth surfaces reduces friction less than webbing. It's smaller and lifts less of the shoe off the deck.
• On non-skid Dyneema single braid is more likely to roll, but still less than a firm braid, because it flattens out.
• On my foredeck (non-skid and plain gelcoat) Dyneema single braid and de-cored polyester lines don't roll but firm polyester DB does, like crazy. Webbing does not roll, but is sometimes slipperier than the small, hollow lines. This seems to depend more on how the foot is placed than the material.
• Covering Dyneema with webbing seems to make it slipperier in all cases. The combination is fatter than plain webbing or Dyneema. But there is more to hold on to (jacklines can be handholds and bare Dyneema is the worst for that, but none of the common materials are good).
• Webbing can flap in the wind, Dyneema won't. Small beans, and we all know you can stop it by twisting the webbing.
• Webbing is easy to distinguish from running rigging, Dyneema less so. I coated my Dyneena jacklines red. All of the stripped control lines are gray/black. Easy. In the dark my boat is a web, so you better have a headlamp anyway.

What I am sure of is that this debate is not simple. Tradeoffs and differences, and several products that are good. The only clear looser is fat rope, unless you can rig it high, almost as a hand line along the cabin chime, and then it is the clear winner (but that will be an unusual case).

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Regarding UV, you can refresh the coating. Several maker, including Marlow, sell it.

Regarding Dyneema and chafe, light, even fuzzing has very limited effect on strength, but localized chafe and minor cuts reduce strength more than equivalent chafe on polyester or nylon. Based on testing by me and others. Also related to the problems with halyard and lifeline failures. The problem is that Dyneema is stiff and slippery, and thus not at all good at sharing load between fibers over a short distance. Fibers near the damamge overload, leading to a cascading failure. So don't worry about fuzz from foot traffic and flapping in the wind, but do worry about localized chafe and cuts. It's somewhere in between inspecting polyester rope and stainless cable. I've done a lot of pull-testing on this.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Using 5mm stainless wire I have never found that it rolls underfoot, on Treadmaster or painted non skid decks. I have tested with my sailing wellies and deck shoes, cross foot or long the foot, the sole moulds around the wire and grips the deck.

I still use wire today and don’t agree that you need the damping of tape if you fall to low side. For me, tape has a lot of disadvantages compared to wire.

 

[thinwater]

So...putting it together (Post 89, 90 and 91) coated Dyneema hollow tape (aka hollow braid) would lie flat and if coated could be, more, UV resistant and maybe less prone to abrasion.

Many makers of cordage make a Dyneema hollow braid.

Jonathan

Expensive, but since when has that stopped yachties?

Slackline/highline suppliers sell it. Many sources. Dyneema/polyester blends are common for many applications, because Dyneema is too slippery and because blends are easier to sew to high strength (more friction). I'm thinking that might be the smart compromise here too. Like polyester webbing, but less stretch (good for big boats) and slightly better UV durability. But more expensive.

 

[geem]

Using 5mm stainless wire I have never found that it rolls underfoot, on Treadmaster or painted non skid decks. I have tested with my sailing wellies and deck shoes, cross foot or long the foot, the sole moulds around the wire and grips the deck.

I still use wire today and don’t agree that you need the damping of tape if you fall to low side. For me, tape has a lot of disadvantages compared to wire.

How do you deal with the damage the wire does to the boat? My webbing runs close to aluminium hatches, granny bars, genoa tracks etc

 

[Roberto]

How do you deal with the damage the wire does to the boat?

And to the light alloy shackles if one uses Tangos &co. One could slip a piece of plastic hose over the curved part of the hook.
Maybe the most "permanent" setup would be steel wire + some used polyesther rope cover., to be replaced from time to time.
Thinking of it, my jacklines are positioned in a way I cannot put my foot over them, maybe I ll revert to wire, year after year I accumulated maybe 50m of discarded used webbing, I should buy more sails, more kayaks and more stuff to be tied to use it all

 

[thinwater]

Using 5mm stainless wire I have never found that it rolls underfoot, on Treadmaster or painted non skid decks. I have tested with my sailing wellies and deck shoes, cross foot or long the foot, the sole moulds around the wire and grips the deck.

I still use wire today and don’t agree that you need the damping of tape if you fall to low side. For me, tape has a lot of disadvantages compared to wire.

Does the wire follow the curve of the side deck at all, or is it bar-tight and laser straight from from to back?

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Assuming the jackline is straight and not slack ...

In a very hard fall on a 40-foot jackline, wire rope would stretch ~ 1-inch inch, Dyneema ~ 4-6 inches, and polyester about 12 inches. These are not in direct relation to elasticity, because the impact will be less for polyester. Assuming a fall at the mid-line The stainless line would deflect only a few inches, the Dyneema line about 2-3 feet, the polyester line a max of 4 feet. A fall nearer the bow or stern would result in much less deflection, a matter of inches in all cases. In a perfect world, the jacklines will be about 10 feet shorter than the boat.

The force on the 5mm wire will and the Dyneema may exceed the WLL of the line and the anchors. This is why only one person is allowed on a jackline. The polyester line will stay within limits but you will likely get near the lee rail.

---

Of course, this is all academic, IMO, because I know of no jacklines failures and few where stretch played an important part, either in injuries or going over the rail. Too much slack in the tether is the real risk factor in every case I know. It either allowed too much movement (many), or allowed enough impact force that a tether clipped to a hard point (not jackline) parted (just a few). Also a few where carabiners twisted and and either unclipped (non-locking) or failed (Spinlock race) due to side load. But no jackline failures that I know of. Anyone, please post if you know of any documented jackline failures.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

How do you deal with the damage the wire does to the boat? My webbing runs close to aluminium hatches, granny bars, genoa tracks etc

There are no scuff marks or damage. They just sit there doing nothing, until connected, then go where they need to go, rarely are they under tension. Mast work is with granny bars, foredeck work is usually on bum, against pull pit.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Does the wire follow the curve of the side deck at all, or is it bar-tight and laser straight from from to back? …

One boat, they run on side deck, and terminate on dedicated U bolts about 1.5 meter from bow or stern. They lay flat and touch edge of front of coach roof. These are not good because they run under Genoa and staysail sheets and a bit of a faff, but manageable.

On other boat they run on coach roof, anchored to cockpit cill, either side of liferaft, between mast and granny bar, terminate at inner forestay, Cockpit has jackstays as well. I use double tether safety lines on both boats. Like first boat a bit of a faff but manageable.

Looser jackstays outside everything would not be less of a faff. First boat they rest under T track edge, usually.