Permanent Jackstays

[thinwater]

... You've also added a trip hazard with the additional tether ....

You wrap the spare tether around your waist. Well known practice. No trip hazard.

That says 20%

Wear and chafe. I had explained that in an earlier post. I suspect after 2 years that allowance is on the low side.

 

[lustyd]

You wrap the spare tether around your waist.

If you remember, sure. Then you have a line around your waist that will snag on things and may impact your life jacket deployment or possibly crush your chest if it does inflate.
Or you forget, and trip on it, either way, it's a worse solution to a solved problem.

Safety is about simplicity and planning for failure, not about overcomplicated systems reliant on doing the right thing. We all think we do the right thing until we're proven wrong.

 

[thinwater]

If you remember, sure. Then you have a line around your waist that will snag on things and may impact your life jacket deployment or possibly crush your chest if it does inflate.
Or you forget, and trip on it, either way, it's a worse solution to a solved problem.

Safety is about simplicity and planning for failure, not about overcomplicated systems reliant on doing the right thing. We all think we do the right thing until we're proven wrong.

You just can't let anything rest. So funny.

Yes, I could forget to tie my shoes and trip over the laces. What I suggested is common practice. Try grinding a winch with the tethers in front of you. It's just ... obvious. You never leave them hang in front of you, other than the short legs, which is too short to be a bother.

It's not going to affect the PFD deployment because it is elastic and 2 meters long. It is also below the PFD bladders. Again ... obvious.

[This is a Wichard Proline prototype they had me testing about 5 years ago--it's on the market now, though they replaced the snap shackle with a locking hook]

BTW, I learned this from some Transpac/Volvo guys that are much smarter than me about this.

 

[lustyd]

You just can't let anything rest. So funny.

Well you just keep saying such daft misguided things and unfortunately that’s up here forever for people to read so better to correct it before you cause problems for other people.

Like dealing with a flat Earther you just keep dreaming up new arguments for why the well proven methods shouldn’t be followed.

 

[fredrussell]

There is risk that high side jackstays allow a user to fall over high side with associated difficulty retrieving that person. With centre jackstays that can be eliminated. The fall from centre line to low side is no different from high side, assuming jackstay tension and safety line is set up correctly. Hence centre line jackstays eliminate at least one risk.

This ^^^

Lustyd, Are you suggesting that clipping on to the high side, across the boat, makes it impossible to fall over that same high side on a boat that may well be pitching around all over the place? As the above poster says, with centre run jack stays and short tethers, you are not going overboard, with your suggested system you are prevented from going over one side only. Is that what you’re suggesting or have I misunderstood?

 

[lustyd]

This ^^^

Lustyd, Are you suggesting that clipping on to the high side, across the boat, makes it impossible to fall over that same high side on a boat that may well be pitching around all over the place? As the above poster says, with centre run jack stays and short tethers, you are not going overboard, with your suggested system you are prevented from going over one side only. Is that what you’re suggesting or have I misunderstood?

Absolutely not. I’m suggesting the person always walks on the windward side so as to fall onto the boat. They clip on to the side they’re on, obviously. If there’s an issue on the leeward side, heave to and fix the issue.
As Neeves said, I’m referring to monohulls and this is standard practice. The jack stays in the middle is pedalled by people trying to sound clever, but as discussed above it’s not clever, doesn’t solve a problem, and introduces a raft of new ones.

 

[fredrussell]

If there’s an issue on the leeward side, heave to and fix the issue…

Ah, but how does one heave to if it’s the sails themselves at fault? You need two sails to heave to. What if one has jammed furled or partly furled - certainly not unheard of. What you’re proposing makes sense as long as a) the problem you’re going forward to solve is on the windward side and/or b) your boat can heave to with whatever problem you’re dealing with.
From what I’ve read on here most are agreed that once you end up in the water, tethered to the boat it’s game over. The way I see it centred jack stays cannot let this happen, whereas side deck jack stays can allow this to happen. I don’t feel I’m trying to “sound clever”, as you put it - it just seems sensible to me to go for the system with the least chance of ending up in the drink.

 

[GHA]

The way I see it centred jack stays cannot let this happen, whereas side deck jack stays can allow this to happen. I don’t feel I’m trying to “sound clever”, as you put it - it just seems sensible to me to go for the system with the least chance of ending up in the drink.

Completely agree, as do Morgans cloud after a summer of testing, one of the chapters about it is free if you subscribe which just needs an email address.
"There is no question in our minds that changing to a centreline jackline (as detailed in the last two chapters) has made us a lot safer than we were when we used sidedeck jacklines."
That's the real world though.....


Though after a life working at height those long tethers are too scary for me!! Much prefer a grigri / grillion (think there are better options these days)

 

[jonathanhsm]

A cheaper version to a gri gri is a Kong Slyde. Am experimenting with a couple of metres of dynamic 9mm climbing rope attached to Kong Slyde and karabiner ... so you can adjust tether length attached to a central jackstay. Seems to make sense ?

 

[Roberto]

A cheaper version to a gri gri is a Kong Slyde. Am experimenting with a couple of metres of dynamic 9mm climbing rope attached to Kong Slyde and karabiner ... so you can adjust tether length attached to a central jackstay. Seems to make sense ?

I tried that but when shortened the hanging lazy part of the line made it rather awkward to bring along on the deck; I kept it for one fixed mast tether, still experimenting but so far really not convinced.
FWIW

 

[GHA]

A cheaper version to a gri gri is a Kong Slyde. Am experimenting with a couple of metres of dynamic 9mm climbing rope attached to Kong Slyde and karabiner ... so you can adjust tether length attached to a central jackstay. Seems to make sense ?

just been watching a YT about some newer options to grillions as well, decathlon have a selection apparently. After working at height so long seems completely crazy not to have an adjustable lanyard in a fall arrest system, so much safer & makes everything sooooo much easier, clip off & lean back into the harness to reef or whatever with both hands free.

 

[zoidberg]

just been watching a YT about some newer options to grillions as well, decathlon have a selection apparently. After working at height so long seems completely crazy not to have an adjustable lanyard in a fall arrest system, so much safer & makes everything sooooo much easier, clip off & lean back into the harness to reef or whatever with both hands free.

It's very pleasing to note that some of the really good personal safety ideas from other disciplines are now finding their way into the stuffy world of boating here and there.

 

[thinwater]

Ah, but how does one heave to if it’s the sails themselves at fault? ...

There you go. The last time I use a tether I was flying a reacher on my F-24 trimaran. We had just rigged a new bowsprit, something was rove incorrectly (our reacher has a Barber hauler, and it was over something it should have been under), and a part of the sheet was fouled in such a way that furling was going to be a problem. Simple, but I need to go to the lee rail, and you can't heave to with a chute or reacher up. It was casual fix, but without a tether would have been dicey at 10-12 knots. Single handed.

But yes, often heaving to is smart.

 

[thinwater]

Other options, particularly on smaller boats, include

• Sitting down and scooting on your butt. It's hard to fall over a railing if you are sitting.
• Doubling the tether around a rail etc. This is accepted practice and can be very secure. Simpler than using an adjustable length tether, but not as versatile. Personally, I find the adjustable tether to be too much hardware, but if it works on your boat, it works.
• Add hard points to clip at specific work stations. This could be near the mast, near a winch, or on the aft deck. My PDQ benefited from a pair of hard points near the mast (the cabin top can be a scary, wide open place on a cruising cat--if you fall you will fly well over the lifelines) and on the aft end of the hard top (very handy for access to the davits and the sugar scoops). Others might find a hard point at the helm handy. These are in addition to jacklines.

I'm not a fan of centerline jackstays. This seems to have been misinterpreted or misread somehow. I would rather clip the windward side and stay inboard of it. On my trimaran, the leeward jackline is a full 6 feet inboard of the lee rail, so even the leeward jackstay is well inboard. There is also no lifeline on the amams (floats). But some smart people like them, and I don't know their boats, so I remain mute on that topic.

A difference between multihulls and monohulls is cause of falls. On monohulls it is often green water and heeling. On multihulls it is the quick motion and suddens stops if you stuff a wave. On either it can be a shift of a line or the boom.

 

[lustyd]

Ah, but how does one heave to if it’s the sails themselves at fault? You need two sails to heave to

If you don't have enough sail to heave to, then tack. If something exceptional happens, then clearly you need to take exceptional steps to correct it, but then you know you're doing something explicitly dangerous and act accordingly.
Simple procedures that work for the normal times prevent the silly accidents that often catch people out. Adding any complexity to the day to day adds risk. I worked in air traffic control systems and have put way too much thought into risk and safety, hence highlighting the downsides of these unusual approaches. You can never completely de-risk any activity but you can reduce or remove human error with good practices and systems. Occasionally you'll end up outside of standard operating procedure, but as long as you know you're in that situation you'll be very much more aware of the risk and can put in temporary measures as Thinwater said like clipping to something else or shortening a safety line (note he said double around a rail - never double around a jackstay).
I've done many of these things in some quite big seas, and I still wouldn't change the well proven systems and procedures because I can see the risks that those changes add, as I detailed above.

 

[jonathanhsm]

If you don't have enough sail to heave to, then tack. If something exceptional happens, then clearly you need to take exceptional steps to correct it, but then you know you're doing something explicitly dangerous and act accordingly.
Simple procedures that work for the normal times prevent the silly accidents that often catch people out. Adding any complexity to the day to day adds risk. I worked in air traffic control systems and have put way too much thought into risk and safety, hence highlighting the downsides of these unusual approaches. You can never completely de-risk any activity but you can reduce or remove human error with good practices and systems. Occasionally you'll end up outside of standard operating procedure, but as long as you know you're in that situation you'll be very much more aware of the risk and can put in temporary measures as Thinwater said like clipping to something else or shortening a safety line (note he said double around a rail - never double around a jackstay).
I've done many of these things in some quite big seas, and I still wouldn't change the well proven systems and procedures because I can see the risks that those changes add, as I detailed above.

Scuse my ignorance ... but why never double round a jackstay ? I have been guilty of doing this.

 

[lustyd]

Scuse my ignorance ... but why never double round a jackstay ? I have been guilty of doing this.

Friction can cut through the safety line. There are other better ways to shorten the line, like passing it through both clips, or wrapping it around a solid rail instead.

With modern fibres it's less likely you'd actually cut it, but the risk is there and since there are better approaches it's best to just start from a point of never doing it.

 

[thinwater]

Some light reading. No comment or implication re. whether I agree.
Jackstays Yachting Monthly

 

[dunedin]

Some light reading. No comment or implication re. whether I agree.
Jackstays Yachting Monthly

The back tow lifejackets were invented following the Lion incident, I believe - TeamO Micro Lifejacket - tested - Yachting Monthly

I use one of these. Happily never tested for real, but seems a worthwhile investment - and very comfortable to wear.

I don’t subscribe to the “central jackstays” theory as we always have a wide sprayhood up, and so jackstays need to start close to side deck at the cockpit. Always go forward on the windward side - if need to work on other side either heave to or use double clips to work down the deck.

Different on a fully crewed race boat with no sprayhood - though again Backtow Lifejacket would be a good investment

 

[lustyd]

I think Team-o went out of business. Or at least stopped making them or talking to customers/suppliers.