Mister E
Well-known member
At least that way, if the skipper is a moron, there's no one else to blame
Not if you ask the wife.
Penlee RNLI Rescue Last Night
- Thread starter Dino
- Start date
Not if you ask the wife.
Capt Popeye
Well-known member
Well some posts keep on refering to a Craft plus her crew ; who I guess embarked upon some adventure , willingly , i guess that sittuation changes when a Craft take on passengers , as then surely the onus changes from having a 'jolly' to saving persons (passengers) lives as a priority , so why should there not be Govt involvement , so taking the 'out for a jolly' actor and replacing it with 'out to save others lives' where the risk factors should be reduced and managed as far as possible ; tis far easier to request that a Craft (say a RNLIB craft) should change from taking risks with their own lives to saving whats considered to be safely possible those taken aboard
Just maybe thats not an easy thing to do , in organisations that are used to taking risks with their own lives , as those saved surely played no part in the crisis at all , they were bit players' caught up in a crisis ;
These decisions as to when to call it a day with any rescue attempts surely are best taken at arms length from those involved in the 'nitty gritty' of the action
Juan Twothree
Well-known member
On the subject of knowing when to call it a day, do you think perhaps that this discussion has run its course?
Opinion on the matter would seem to be divided; essentially between you and everyone else, and I can't see that changing any time soon.
Whilst your indefatigability is nothing short of inspirational, I do wonder whether we should agree to disagree, and all move on with our lives?
Capt Popeye
Well-known member
Well thank you for your opinion on my issue ; I am learning quite a lot about the Rescue Services , lots that I as a Inshore Home Waters , did not appreciate , untill this post started ; For instance i (we) will stop refering to our local non CG lookout as a CG Lookout ; also we are now aware , or opinion has it , that keeping our Home Waters safe from Illegals etc is not a priority ?
Might state Mr JTT that feel free to ignore this (my) posts if it pleases you ; participating is entirely optional ; your RNLI belief is well understood
Thanks for publicising the RNLI inner workings , as an insider , all very interesting ; so please take the option to move on ?
Sailfree
Well-known member
I have not read complete thread but has anyone commented on the torn main sail. Does it appear to be 2nd reef and not what I would expect the third reef?
chrishscorp
Well-known member
Well some posts keep on refering to a Craft plus her crew ; who I guess embarked upon some adventure , willingly , i guess that sittuation changes when a Craft take on passengers , as then surely the onus changes from having a 'jolly' to saving persons (passengers) lives as a priority , so why should there not be Govt involvement , so taking the 'out for a jolly' actor and replacing it with 'out to save others lives' where the risk factors should be reduced and managed as far as possible ; tis far easier to request that a Craft (say a RNLIB craft) should change from taking risks with their own lives to saving whats considered to be safely possible those taken aboard
So far the only main emergency service they havent s###### up is the RNLI
Just maybe thats not an easy thing to do , in organisations that are used to taking risks with their own lives , as those saved surely played no part in the crisis at all , they were bit players' caught up in a crisis ;
Sometimes thats the hand your dealt
These decisions as to when to call it a day with any rescue attempts surely are best taken at arms length from those involved in the 'nitty gritty' of the action
Indeed, we will all sleep so much more soundly knowing the CG will call Whitehall and may be referred to a duty Minister like say Gavin Wiliamson....
So far the only main emergency service they havent s###### up is the RNLI
Just maybe thats not an easy thing to do , in organisations that are used to taking risks with their own lives , as those saved surely played no part in the crisis at all , they were bit players' caught up in a crisis ;
Sometimes thats the hand your dealt
These decisions as to when to call it a day with any rescue attempts surely are best taken at arms length from those involved in the 'nitty gritty' of the action
Indeed, we will all sleep so much more soundly knowing the CG will call Whitehall and may be referred to a duty Minister like say Gavin Wiliamson....
Sandy
Well-known member
I thought it is a first reef.
From a purely academic interest it would be useful to know the material, mileage and maker of the sail.
penberth3
Well-known member
@Capt Popeye can I ask you a question? By convention Forumites are anonymous, I'm not asking for personal detail, ignore this if you wish.
I've no idea what you do/did for a living, but did you ever have responsibility for others in hazardous situations? I don't mean running out of Nescafe or copier paper, I mean a risk of serious harm to people or property, a fire, a chemical spill, an unstable structure, severe weather on land or sea, machinery or vehicle breakdowns?
I'm asking because apart from being unaware of UK law and protocols you don't seem to understand how decision making works in a crisis.
I've no idea what you do/did for a living, but did you ever have responsibility for others in hazardous situations? I don't mean running out of Nescafe or copier paper, I mean a risk of serious harm to people or property, a fire, a chemical spill, an unstable structure, severe weather on land or sea, machinery or vehicle breakdowns?
I'm asking because apart from being unaware of UK law and protocols you don't seem to understand how decision making works in a crisis.
rotrax
Well-known member
I can answer the above. As a Motorsport administrator, Licenced Trainer and Clerk of the Course, I have been there and done it.
Telling 45 to 50 guys their day is over because the only ambulance has taken an injury to the hospital once resulted in physical violence from a disapointed rider.
Similar with a waterlogged track.
Someone had to draw a line in the sand and make the decision that the track was unfit. That person was sometimes me.
On the spot, intimately involved, ex rider, so knew the score. Rider/Trainee safety was the most important factor in the decision. Even in such a dynamic and dangerous discipline as Speedway Racing.
The ACU or Speedway Control Board in Rugby were miles away from the gig. Why would they be asked anyway?
They had spent time and money training and appointing me to do the job.
The buck has to stop somewhere, and I for one am very happy with the way the Coastguard and RNLI conduct their SAR.
As I said in my earlier post, if it aint broke, dont fix it!
Telling 45 to 50 guys their day is over because the only ambulance has taken an injury to the hospital once resulted in physical violence from a disapointed rider.
Similar with a waterlogged track.
Someone had to draw a line in the sand and make the decision that the track was unfit. That person was sometimes me.
On the spot, intimately involved, ex rider, so knew the score. Rider/Trainee safety was the most important factor in the decision. Even in such a dynamic and dangerous discipline as Speedway Racing.
The ACU or Speedway Control Board in Rugby were miles away from the gig. Why would they be asked anyway?
They had spent time and money training and appointing me to do the job.
The buck has to stop somewhere, and I for one am very happy with the way the Coastguard and RNLI conduct their SAR.
As I said in my earlier post, if it aint broke, dont fix it!
RobWard
Member
This is so reminiscent of Mountain Rescue threads. Whenever there's a high profile accident in the mountains, there is invariably a flurry of criticism and calls for MR to be government run ( curiously, against the prevailing trend to privatise .)
It's a nonsense. The idea of salaried staff going out in wild and stormy conditions, directed by a bureaucrat ultimately responsible to political masters, couldn't and wouldn't work.
No enterprise is perfect, they all have to be on a steady learning curve improving, learning from mistakes, refining protocols. Which is what the RNLI and MR teams seem to be doing. Leave well alone.
zoidberg
Well-known member
Sir Humphrey Appleby? Bernard....?
I've read some daft ideas in these pages..... and this is one of them.
Sandy
Well-known member
Thinking out loud this does happen.
Helicopter crews are paid, currently by the MCA and in my time as a Mountain Rescue Team member by the RAF. I still miss the bright yellow Whirlwinds of 22 Sqn.
From what I have witnessed there is quite a lot of direction from people in offices, the RNLI are given search patterns by the CG and they are precise instructions - we can all see what is now done thanks to AIS. MRTs have people in huts/caravans/lorries/rescue vehicles pouring over maps and liaising with lots of different people trying to work out a plan for a search/rescue while the team is enroute to the general area. MRTs are called out at the request of the police and in my youth we has a lot of RAF MRTs activity in Scotland.
All rescue organisations will have some accountability to political masters. There was some funding for kit from government and when I was involved the radio frequencies were known as 'Home Office' frequencies and monitored by our friends at the Donut near Cheltenham! How they picked up one of my colleagues using a string of swear words on a dark and stormy night, F10 gusting F12 with horizontal rain/hail/snow, when we struggled to hear him was surprising. While his language described the conditions to a T, the letter from the Home Office reminding us that swearing could result in loss of permission to use the radios did come as a bit of a shock.
Paid or unpaid everybody works extremely hard to ensure that people are found.
Stemar
Well-known member
Seems to me that this reaction was a good example of why the office-bound shouldn't be in charge. The correct response under such circumstances is "I don't blame him. Poor buggers, best of luck to 'em, they need it."
Sandy
Well-known member
They were not in charge! We were licenced to use their frequency and required to adhere to 'normal' radio procedures. This was formally brought to our attention, dealt with and formally responded to. It did not happen again.
We had been careful with some of the terminology used as it was suspected that radio HAMs/press monitored the frequency. Request for tea towels and a box of Mars bars related to the location and severity of trauma injuries, or a request for a body bag!
Oddly, "Poor buggers, best of luck to 'em, they need it." never came into our minds. We were clear what was needed to do and worked hard so that the casualty was found, brought off the hill and either returned home or hospital. When we were faced with a fatality that they were treated with dignity and knew that the family had a body to bury and grieve over.
Whaup367
Active member
Agreed, though the reports of the initial call point to water ingress as the trigger for the initial pan-pan. It would be interesting to know what the chain of events was... I still remain curious about the "smashed port light": there are lots of recent designs with hull-mounted portlights (I'm guessing this is at least in part because of the trend to have high freeboard), how can an owner or skipper assess whether these are secure?
The boat is/was CE Cat-A, and likely less than ten years old; any thoughts on what the charterers (or a potential owner) might have looked for to realise that this was a vulnerability?
Juan Twothree
Well-known member
At the risk of being pedantic, the helicopter crews are actually employed by Bristows, not directly by the MCA. And even though they are given search instructions by the CG, where they actually go, and the safety of the aircraft, is ultimately down to the aircraft commander. If he/she considers that conditons are outside limits then they don't go. End of.
Similarly, although a lifeboat gets given search instructions, it's up to the helm/cox to determine whether or not it's safe or appropriate to follow them. And in my recent experience, some of the search areas that the CG computer has churned out bear no relation to where the casualty is likely to be.
The computer predictions work well in open water, but close to the coast they don't take into account local topography or tidal streams. Far better in that instance to rely on the crew's local knowledge and experience. If we explain to the CG why we think our plan is better, they are usually very grateful to receive our input.
Juan Twothree
Well-known member
Maybe that's where the post get delivered when it's in a marina?
Capt Popeye
Well-known member
Cripes , thought that you had taken your ball and gone elsewhere , see you can still contribute (meaningfully) ; might suggest that there is lots to evolve from this Thread , we all have our beliefs etc and understandings , so glad that you are still in the Game , being Pedantic or Not {
)boomerangben
Well-known member
I don’t think there would be any appetite from government to adopt hitherto generally extremely well funded branches of the emergency services such as RNLI, air ambulances (I know I am introducing another no boaty topic) and perhaps to a lesser extent MRs (which I know can struggle for funding in some areas).
As for governmental operational control, could Capt Popeye perhaps indicate his thoughts on what qualifications and experience he would expect of a person who controls a rescue operation remotely, how many people in the country have such a cv and how on earth he would develop the necessary relationships between controllers and the front line crews and teams who actually doing the rescue?
As for governmental operational control, could Capt Popeye perhaps indicate his thoughts on what qualifications and experience he would expect of a person who controls a rescue operation remotely, how many people in the country have such a cv and how on earth he would develop the necessary relationships between controllers and the front line crews and teams who actually doing the rescue?
ylop
Well-known member
Ah - a more sensible discussion again!
I'm not sure if we know the failure mode? e.g. did the glass just fall out? did it smash? if so was it damaged in a collision (now or at some unknown point in history) or was it the result of flexing of the hull?
Whilst big holes above the waterline are never going to be ideal, when I learned to sail we covered makeshift repairs with cushions and bunk boards etc to try and stem the flow of water. I'd be surprised if the bilge pump couldn't keep up with the flow if a bunk cushion was jammed against it. I've never done it for real and I'd probably be calling the CG for "support" even in less serious conditions but I'm not convinced that if the only water was coming in via that window that she was really sinking like the headline said.