Penlee RNLI Rescue Last Night

[James_Calvert]

Just to a little to add,

The yacht did have AIS.

Out of curiosity I'd looked at an AIS app to see what was about and noticed first the lifeboat heading across towards Mullion. A transmission from the yacht, some time earlier, recorded it heading SEly towards the Lizard. Then a helo SAR appeared. At some point another transmission from the yacht showed it behind the lifeboat heading back towards Newlyn, and with a helo in attendance. And finally AIS showed the inshore lifeboat coming out of Newlyn to assist.

There seemed to be another SAR helo out there as well, maybe in support of the lifeboat on its tow back. Which might have landed for a while in Scilly.

 

[Juan Twothree]

well what I am stating is that in these days of mass communication /information etc its really out of date to rely upon a RNLI Cox to make the calls on their own , plus the Skipper of a Craft in danger is perhaps not the best to ask any opinions of , as they got their craft into that danger ?

Surely a rescue attempt ought to be best managed as possible , thats objectively and best informed , thats clearly a combined opinion not someone up to their neck in the rescue

No, the decisions absolutely should be taken by someone "up to their neck in the rescue".

The cox/helm is aware of the on scene weather, sea conditions, depth of water, where the casualty vessel is positioned, in a way that the CG operations room staff, possibly hundreds of miles away, aren't.

And the reason we'd consult with the skipper of the casualty vessel is because we need to know what they'd like us to do. Do they want to be taken off, do they went a tow, and if so where to? Although we usually tow them to the nearest safe haven, how that safe haven is defined will depend on the weather, state of tide, whether or not the vessel can take the ground etc etc.

 

[ylop]

Yes well guess all those distress systems that you refer to can fail , non function , etc etc wheras a Flare is pretty reliable and means just one thing

if that were true none of those modern distress aids would have achieved market traction. In reality a flare can fail in many ways not least by nobody seeing it. Even when the CG did maintain a lookout (which stopped about 40 yrs ago!) they couldn’t see the entire coastline, could only see as far as their height and bins/telescope worked - and so were far from certain to see every flare.

The non technical amoungst us can both see and understand what a Flare means / is surely

but have no idea what the distress is, how many people need rescued etc., along with the risks in deploying them and disposing of them. Nobody is the yachting community could be immune to the debate about whether flares are worth hassle and so it seems you must be a troll.

So we might just let off our Flares anytime at sea now and nobody is watching out for them ?

how did you get to that conclusion? If you see a flare will you ignore it or call the CG (or have you been ignoring it in some mistaken belief that the CG see all flares themselves somehow?).

 

[ylop]

well what I am stating is that in these days of mass communication /information etc its really out of date to rely upon a RNLI Cox to make the calls on their own , plus the Skipper of a Craft in danger is perhaps not the best to ask any opinions of , as they got their craft into that danger ?

expecting someone sitting in a warm office on land to make these calls is almost certainly a bad idea! Moreover it’s not a philosophy adopted by any of the emergency services - all of them empower people on the ground to make decisions.

Surely a rescue attempt ought to be best managed as possible , thats objectively and best informed , thats clearly a combined opinion not someone up to their neck in the rescue

interestingly when you read about the original of “SOSREP” in dealing with major incidents it’s precisely to put a single decision maker in control not a combined committee opinion. It’s considered to be a very good solution that has now been copied in many other jurisdictions.

Might suggest that Flares are possibly the main option for small craft , like dinghys , Boards , Canoes etc cannot see these craft having big electronic equipment etc ;

did you get stuck in the 1980s? A mobile phone in a waterproof case is probably the main solution for those applications but if you want a purpose made distress equipment a vhf radio (even one with DSC capability) can be had in a package smaller than any useful set of flares and PLBs are available for about the size of a turn of the century compact camera

Might suggest that if a crafts Electrical system has gone down then its Electronics are poss also down as well

but most craft would have a secondary means of calling for help with its own battery!

Just seems to me that our safety at Sea has been comprimised greatly , especially if our CG are too busy to keep a Lookout ?

they haven’t been doing that for about 40 years and despite leisure use of the water going up, actual casualty rates are not tracking it so it seems you want to spend money on hypothetical risk.

 

[Rappey]

With a vhf or a waterproof phone you will know when help is coming.
You don't know if anyone is responding to your flare.

especially if our CG are too busy to keep a Lookout

Keep a lookout for what ? Vessels can notify of a problem long before an onlooker may notice ?

 

[rotrax]

I think the Captain is out of touch.

I wonder what the numerical relationship of pyrotechnic flare distress alerts to telephone/radio/epirb alerts is?

I suspect the former are a tiny, tiny proportion.

I am going to deep six my pyrotechnics - now expired and £200 quid to replace - with an American CG approved SOS flashing LED flare. 10 miles at night, 3 miles in daylight visibility.

Already arranged a friend to get me one when in Florida early next year.

When the CG kept a visual watch it was because the electronic communication systems were in their infancy.

Now I can have a video call with my NZ Grandchildren on a mobile phone.

50 years ago that was Dan Dare stuff. Now we all have one in our pockets.

If the technology works and is reliable, use it.

IMHO, of course...........................................

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Coxswain must decide whether to launch and whether to stay launched. His life and his boat. Who else could possibly make that decision?

I thought the decision to launch is the responsibility of the appointed Launching Authority, who is not necessarily the Cox'n .

 

[Juan Twothree]

I thought the decision to launch is the responsibility of the appointed Launching Authority, who is not necessarily the Cox'n .

The launching authority authorises the launch, but the cox/helm can still refuse to go.

Quite unusual if that happened, but the LA always discusses the job with the cox, it's not an order.

It might be that the cox can see a flaw in the planned mission that the LA has overlooked

 

[Capt Popeye]

Coxswain must decide whether to launch and whether to stay launched. His life and his boat. Who else could possibly make that decision?

Well thats just not always the case is it ; once a Life boat has passengers on board , the persons at risk are magnified , the Crew plus the Pasengers , to an extent that someone else not involved in /on the boat should take the responsibility as to whether the LB stays in the event or is asked /called in to base

After all some saved is probably far better outcome than none saved , all lost ; That saying is applicable in this scenario surely - A Bird in the Hand - ; The Other Authority could /should decided if using a LB is the only or best solution in these cases , I think

The present RNLI belief , as JT well states , is in these enlightened times most probably not the very best that should or can be offered ?

 

[Capt Popeye]

expecting someone sitting in a warm office on land to make these calls is almost certainly a bad idea! Moreover it’s not a philosophy adopted by any of the emergency services - all of them empower people on the ground to make decisions.

interestingly when you read about the original of “SOSREP” in dealing with major incidents it’s precisely to put a single decision maker in control not a combined committee opinion. It’s considered to be a very good solution that has now been copied in many other jurisdictions.

did you get stuck in the 1980s? A mobile phone in a waterproof case is probably the main solution for those applications but if you want a purpose made distress equipment a vhf radio (even one with DSC capability) can be had in a package smaller than any useful set of flares and PLBs are available for about the size of a turn of the century compact camera

but most craft would have a secondary means of calling for help with its own battery!
they haven’t been doing that for about 40 years and despite leisure use of the water going up, actual casualty rates are not tracking it so it seems you want to spend money on hypothetical risk.

Well I think that leaving decisions to those closest involved just might change after the New Manchester Bombing case ?

No think that the idea that someone is sitting in a warm office precludes them from knowing the Facts of an Emergency case is a tad false (a BIG Tad)

Over the years fatalities have occured in Emergency cases where the Senior Officer on site and in Charge has made serious blunders , later on these Senior Officers appear to have resigned ?

No ONE person officer should be placed in this difficult possition , involving those outside the immediate Event can most often result in a better outcome for all concerned

 

[TLouth7]

once a Life boat has passengers on board , the persons at risk are magnified , the Crew plus the Pasengers , to an extent that someone else not involved in /on the boat should take the responsibility as to whether the LB stays in the event or is asked /called in to base

I don't follow your logic here. I understand that extra people on the lifeboat change the balance of risk, but why is that only apparent to someone not onboard? The coxswain will be entirely aware of how many casualties they have taken aboard and able to make that judgement.

I can certainly see an advantage to the overall on-scene person in charge not being the person actively steering the lifeboat, I don't know how the RNLI operate in that regard.

 

[Juan Twothree]

I can certainly see an advantage to the overall on-scene person in charge not being the person actively steering the lifeboat, I don't know how the RNLI operate in that regard.

The RNLI policy is that the person in command shouldn't normally be driving the boat. That way, they can maintain a far better overview of the situation and management of the incident.

It depends on the crew on board, and their level of competence and experience. On the Atlantic 85 I'll sit in front of the chart plotter or radar, or often on seat 4 at the back.

The only times I take the wheel myself these days is in marginal sea conditions, where there's a danger of us going over, or sometimes if we're manoeuvring a big vessel into a berth using an alongside tow.

 

[doug748]

Coxswain must decide whether to launch and whether to stay launched. His life and his boat. Who else could possibly make that decision?

Indeed, how could it ever be anyone else? The Master under God.

It falls to him to make a judgement about crew strength. local conditions, mechanical problems medical emergencies, launching equipment malfunction and the rest of it?

.

 

[ylop]

Well I think that leaving decisions to those closest involved just might change after the New Manchester Bombing case ?

I think you have misunderstood the evidence of the enquiry if you think the problem was the people at the scene were empowered to act and chose not to!

No ONE person officer should be placed in this difficult possition , involving those outside the immediate Event can most often result in a better outcome for all concerned

the point is there must be one person who has the authority, the gravitas, the knowledge and understanding to make decisions quickly. Coastguard watch officers aren’t really best placed to decide if a lifeboat can safely attempt a tow in the current weather conditions - most will never have helmed a lifeboat in good weather never mind poor conditions. Their job is vital (and often forgotten about whilst the the hero’s on the front line get the medals) but the coxwain must have the authority to say “no we are going back”, and there must be no ambiguity that it’s his decision to make at any time - not just if he thinks the CG should already have stopped the mission and have screwed up - that creates group think where everyone is waiting for someone else to speak up. Similarly the CG ask the lifeboat if they would be prepared to launch, they never demand it. It must be the launch authority’s decision (and the coxswains decision to then stop the launch). (Afaik coxswains are not empowered to ignore the DLA if the DLA says we are not going out?)

captain pop eye - how much have you actually bothered to understand how the U.K. maritime rescue stuff works? Lots of magazine articles, tv series, etc. RNLI coxswains frequently ask the coastguard to get more resources; CGs frequently mobilise other assets. What exactly is your concern? Is it that over 40 years ago a lifeboat crew made the decision to try and rescue all the crew not just part of it and ultimately paid with their own lives? How many times have lifeboat crews been in dodgy circumstances and managed to pull it off? How many times would someone carrying that burden ashore have veto’d it and left the casualties to die? How many times would the crew have “had poor radio reception” and tried again anyway? How many times would lifeboats have been put in danger because the shore based decision maker had no idea how bad it really was (and would we trust crew to be honest if they thought there was a cautious commander who might leave people to die)? How often would the person making the decision be the budget holder having to explain why a helo was required or worried they’d get a bill for a damaged lifeboat.

 

[penberth3]

HM Coastguard hasn't had any security/guarding role since the middle of the 19th century......

With the exception of WW1 and WW2...?

 

[Capt Popeye]

No, the decisions absolutely should be taken by someone "up to their neck in the rescue".

The cox/helm is aware of the on scene weather, sea conditions, depth of water, where the casualty vessel is positioned, in a way that the CG operations room staff, possibly hundreds of miles away, aren't.

And the reason we'd consult with the skipper of the casualty vessel is because we need to know what they'd like us to do. Do they want to be taken off, do they went a tow, and if so where to? Although we usually tow them to the nearest safe haven, how that safe haven is defined will depend on the weather, state of tide, whether or not the vessel can take the ground etc etc.

Yes well , my take is that all you are stating is from your RNLI teachings and experiences , BUT , surely there are other Legal and Govt wishes in these dreadfull dangerous conditions to consider ?
Might ask you , when Passengers , are taken aboard a RNLI craft , are you aware of any additional Legal obligations for H&S etc , loss of life , as might state , the Penlee incident just shows how things can go awry , even with a good Cox in charge ?
As I understand it the Penlee incident lost the lives of all crew , the passengers aboard the Ship , the Captain and some Crew of the Ship
I have thoughts that if the RNLI had decided to take those that it was possible to take of the Ship when it was possible to do so , rather that attempt to take the remaining Crew menbers , many lives would have been saved ?
My take is that a Helo might have been possible to take the remaining Ships Crew off more safely , especially if the Ship was grounded by then ?
Maybe I just do not understand the sittuations at the time ?
Maybe I can learn about Off Shore boating ?
I am an inshore boater , in fine weather , good sound engines etc , plenty of fuel etc {)#

Oh when out today I plan to visit our Local CG lookout and ask the CG if they actually keep a watch on our Homeland shores for incidents , illegals , flares etc etc ; I do find it strange that our local CG has refurbished Lookout / Base built right above the beach , with the only windows facing out to Sea , as if I understan some contributers on here they do not Look Out To Sea ?

Maybe our Local CG are Old School , like me ? {)#

 

[ylop]

My take is that a Helo might have been possible to take the remaining Ships Crew off more safely , especially if the Ship was grounded by then ?

if you had done even some basic research you would know that there was a helo there and it could not winch due to the conditions. Of course there is an argument that aborting the rescue when they had 4 casualties on board might have saved 12 lives and sacrificed 4. It's a hell of a bit of 20-20 hindsight though and requires you to believe you are better at decision-making than the people involved. I can make every decision easily when I know the outcome of the other options with certainty. The cox also knew with pretty much certainty what would happen if they didn't try.

Oh when out today I plan to visit our Local CG lookout

they don't have lookouts - they have Maritime Rescue Coordination Centres. Your local station may well be managing a rescue at the other end of the country if the nearest facility is busy. Of course sometimes they look out the window - but if you do get a warm reception to your visit, ask them how often they discover situations by looking out the window and how often on VHF, Phone, Fax (AFAIK that's still how EPIRBs are forwarded on!)...

 

[Hermit]

Oh when out today I plan to visit our Local CG lookout

Or perhaps you mean NCI? Teignmouth | National Coastwatch Institution

 

[Sandy]

Or perhaps you mean NCI? Teignmouth | National Coastwatch Institution

When I visited NCI Rame Head in the summer they very politely refused entry because of the COVID risk.

 

[Stemar]

Pre-Covid, though, I got a very friendly reception when I visited. NCI is also happy for you to call them for a radio check.