Opinions please - New sails from Elvstrom.

[Baggywrinkle]

I have a Bavaria 44 Vision with Selden in-mast reefing, all electric winches and electric furling genoa and I sail in Croatia - so in summer lots of very light wind days, but occasional hoolies .... I'd be really grateful for advice on replacement sails ....

I have had a quote from Elvstrom for Main (54,1m2), 110% jib (37,3m2) and a Code Zero (83,2m2) .... current sails are the factory standard with a total sail area Main & Genoa of 110m2. I prefer a smaller foresail and hope the Code Zero will be good for off-wind speed in lighter winds - I also have a spinnaker although unlikely to use it much unless practically becalmed - to be honest it scares the sh!t out of me.

The plan is a main, vertically battened, tri-radial, with 4 full length battens, and 4 short leech battens, the jib has 4 leech battens - both are made of Pro-Radial cloth from Dimension Polyant - which is basically woven polyester with the jib being slightly lighter fabric.

The Code-Zero is on a furling anti-torsion cable and is a radial laminate and the sailcloth is BZ 60 which I can't find mentioned anywhere on the web.

The bill for all 3 sails plus furling system is quite big ... what should I expect to pay (ballpark) from any other sailmaker for a similar setup?

Any comments on sail/cloth choice also welcome. I would like reasonable performance, and good longevity, I don't race but appreciate sails that set well.

I went from Main/130% Genoa to Main/110% + Asymetric on my last boat and it was transformed, I have based my choice on this experience and hope I get the same result again. My current sails are the originals from around 2008 I think.

PS: I would be grateful for no stack-packs/lazy-jacks or single-line reefing comments as we are a sailing couple and we can't reach either the rear half of the boom (it's up over a 4 meter wide spray hood and bimini) or the head of the sail as it would be well over 2 meters above the deck. I have chartered with stack-packs in similar sized boats and for us it was simply a nightmare. We couldn't reach the zip for the sail cover, couldn't reach the head of the sail to make the halyard fast, and the gymnastics while holding a boat-hook trying to catch zips and halyards is not our thing - not to mention, I have no intention of changing the mast on this boat. So please refrain from stack-pack comparisons - thank-you.

 

[ylop]

When I came to replace Elvstrom sails on a Bavaria I assumed they would have a standard stock item as they supplied the originals. I still don’t understand why their business model doesn’t have such an item! I ended up getting quotes from four different sail makers costs varied, but perhaps not as much as I expected. What was harder was actually understanding some of the quotes - some people quoting basic elements in the quote and others listing them as extras. In the end I went with the sailmaker who had both been most helpful in working out what I needed and providing the clearest, least ambiguous quote.

If you aren’t going to have sailmaker measure it there are some online services that are a bit cheaper because you do that bit.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

When I came to replace Elvstrom sails on a Bavaria I assumed they would have a standard stock item as they supplied the originals. I still don’t understand why their business model doesn’t have such an item! I ended up getting quotes from four different sail makers costs varied, but perhaps not as much as I expected. What was harder was actually understanding some of the quotes - some people quoting basic elements in the quote and others listing them as extras. In the end I went with the sailmaker who had both been most helpful in working out what I needed and providing the clearest, least ambiguous quote.

If you aren’t going to have sailmaker measure it there are some online services that are a bit cheaper because you do that bit.

Thanks for the reply, it appears from talking to Elvstrom that Bavaria has the details of the original rig for which the original sails were made. All they wanted was the year of manufacture of the boat and if available the serial number of the mast which is engraved near the mast foot.

 

[ashtead]

Having had Elvstrom sails on a Bavaria it’s not where I would go if replacing but clear the standard ones fitted to factory boats are what might be considered the base model. I guess the first question is what in simple terms you want in sailcloth and if you intend to progress from basic Dacron to step up to vectran or step up even further hydranet I believe. The other confusing factor is different makers use different brand names but most reputable one will be able to supply based on a model like a Bav . Given location are you searching a local sailmaker or are you prepared to use a uk located supplier? I believe North sails would be a starting point if not in uk mainly due to network even though they are in uk in Gosport and apparently are trying to be more competing in crusing market.
It might help if you said though which Elvstrom type and price quoted . I guess you could have a cheap main and a more robust headsail. To my mind Bavaria over specified size of headsail leading to reefing etc which isn’t ideal so agree a smaller headsail with improved visibility from high cut whatever sailcloth used. We went for vectran when replacing on our Bav.

 

[oldbloke]

Elvstrom make very good sails, they also make pretty basic budget sails which they supply to the manufacturers. I would have no qualms about a suit they might make for me if we had agreed the specifications.

 

[RAI]

When I last bought Elvstrom Sobstad sails in 2003 their sails were made by China Sails. I was told their cruising sails were racing sails, radial fibres layed up on a aerofoil mold and covered in foil and then taffeta. After 20 years they are dirty but still holding their shape surprisingly well.
Needless to say, I don't race.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Having had Elvstrom sails on a Bavaria it’s not where I would go if replacing but clear the standard ones fitted to factory boats are what might be considered the base model. I guess the first question is what in simple terms you want in sailcloth and if you intend to progress from basic Dacron to step up to vectran or step up even further hydranet I believe. The other confusing factor is different makers use different brand names but most reputable one will be able to supply based on a model like a Bav . Given location are you searching a local sailmaker or are you prepared to use a uk located supplier? I believe North sails would be a starting point if not in uk mainly due to network even though they are in uk in Gosport and apparently are trying to be more competing in crusing market.
It might help if you said though which Elvstrom type and price quoted . I guess you could have a cheap main and a more robust headsail. To my mind Bavaria over specified size of headsail leading to reefing etc which isn’t ideal so agree a smaller headsail with improved visibility from high cut whatever sailcloth used. We went for vectran when replacing on our Bav.

These are the details.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

AFAIK, Bavaria has over-large genoas, at least on my generation, due to the charter market in the med. Lots of windless days and the charter companies don't trust charterers with lightweight sails as sometimes the wind does blow really hard, so to save repair costs, they overspecify the genoa instead.

 

[flaming]

Code looks smaller than I'd expect. It's barely any bigger than my code on a 32 foot boat. Which given your Jib is 43sqm to my 27sqm seems slightly off. Admittedly we're a race boat but.... Also, ensure with them that they're not building you a "race legal" code, as you don't need it and a cruising code is a much better sail without being compromised by the girth requirements to measure as a spinnaker. I think though the code as specified is going to be a good light- medium reaching sail but not a huge help going deeper than say 140 degrees. You need to overcome your spinnaker fears!

On the flip side I completely agree with your suggested small jib + code as being perfect for a cruising boat. I've long advocated for that as being the most sensible rig.

The problem with cruising sails these days in my opinion is that everyone has "their" cloth, even if it reality they're essentially the same thing, so it's easy to get overwhelmed with options. If you go to 4 sailmakers they'll give you 4 opinions about size and cut, 9 cloth options and 3 suggestions of sails you really need but hadn't thought of...

It's honestly more useful, I think, to gather opinions of sailmakers who were helpful and listened to your needs, and then pick one or 2 to go to and ask. The fact that you're asking here suggests to me that you don't have full confidence in what they're telling you....

If I was compiling a list of sailmakers I'd order quality cruising sails from Sanders would be top of the list. I'd also ask North, but to be honest that's because I buy race sails from them and have a good relationship with them. Coming in "cold" as it were I'm not sure you'd necessarily get the same attention. But I'm happy to put you in touch with the guy I deal with if you want.

 

[Birdseye]

If I was compiling a list of sailmakers I'd order quality cruising sails from Sanders would be top of the list.

I would make the same recommendation - you can have a long chat with Sanders himself and get good advice. The sails I have bought from them have been good quality. The jibs have all been cruising laminates simply because of the way they hold shape . I am not in the same league as many of the racers on here but I do enjoy sail tweaking whether racing or cruising so a sail that holds shape is important to me.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Code looks smaller than I'd expect. It's barely any bigger than my code on a 32 foot boat. Which given your Jib is 43sqm to my 27sqm seems slightly off. Admittedly we're a race boat but.... Also, ensure with them that they're not building you a "race legal" code, as you don't need it and a cruising code is a much better sail without being compromised by the girth requirements to measure as a spinnaker. I think though the code as specified is going to be a good light- medium reaching sail but not a huge help going deeper than say 140 degrees. You need to overcome your spinnaker fears!

When I sail with my friends, the spinnaker is fine, it's just when it's me and my partner, We are 120kg combined and while it was doable on the 36 footer, this one just looks like a monster and everything is bigger and heavier...... a nice furling code 0 and sacrificing downwind performance is fine with me when we are cruising 2 up. It's a cruising code so I'm OK on that front too. The one thing has changed though, Elvstrom has suggested an increase to the foresail, now 120% due to the genoa tracks fitted to the Bav 44 Vision - I guess they don't deliver the sheeting angles for something smaller.

On the flip side I completely agree with your suggested small jib + code as being perfect for a cruising boat. I've long advocated for that as being the most sensible rig.

The problem with cruising sails these days in my opinion is that everyone has "their" cloth, even if it reality they're essentially the same thing, so it's easy to get overwhelmed with options. If you go to 4 sailmakers they'll give you 4 opinions about size and cut, 9 cloth options and 3 suggestions of sails you really need but hadn't thought of...

It's honestly more useful, I think, to gather opinions of sailmakers who were helpful and listened to your needs, and then pick one or 2 to go to and ask. The fact that you're asking here suggests to me that you don't have full confidence in what they're telling you....

The cloth for the main and jib are Dimension Polyant but Elvstrom has given them a different name, the name from the Code 0 I can't link to any sailcloth manufacturer so can't tell where it comes from. The meeting with the sailmaker was very productive, he started off just thinking I wanted to replace the existing sails, but got a bit more excited when I told him what I actually wanted. Turns out there is a fair amount I need to do to get a code 0 on to fit nicely on my 2008 mast .... I was very worried about the size of the gap between the genny and the code, as the spinnaker halyard exits the mast just above the genoa. I thought it needed more distance and the sailmaker confirmed this. So I've ended up with a new halyard for the code zero, well clear of the genoa (with 2 to 1 purchase), and a removable bowsprit well clear of the pullpit. A stainless steel extension to the bow roller wasn't really what I wanted anyway. The rig is fractional, but only just, so there is not much mast between the mast-head and the top of the genoa.

I also decided to get an electric furler. All the other sails are electric so it would be skimping not to go electric for the code 0 too. Nobody is getting any younger and I really love the electric genoa furling.

If I was compiling a list of sailmakers I'd order quality cruising sails from Sanders would be top of the list. I'd also ask North, but to be honest that's because I buy race sails from them and have a good relationship with them. Coming in "cold" as it were I'm not sure you'd necessarily get the same attention. But I'm happy to put you in touch with the guy I deal with if you want.

North has popped up a number of times in conversation, but so far no-one has come forward with Elvstrom horror stories - so I'll probably go with them. I also want to avoid the B-word blues with customs, and the additional costs/hassle associated with buying from the U.K. - so I want a supplier based in Europe really.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[flaming]

The one thing has changed though, Elvstrom has suggested an increase to the foresail, now 120% due to the genoa tracks fitted to the Bav 44 Vision - I guess they don't deliver the sheeting angles for something smaller.

In haulers?

 

[Tranona]

I agree with the 110% foresail and with getting the code 0 out on a bowsprit. I went through a similar exercise with my Bavaria which was a later Farr design and already had a 106% jib. However the original Elvestrom sail was cut too full and Kemps took a slice out of the luff. It held its shape well when furler, although less furling is needed with the smaller sail. The main was more problematic, particularly when it got baggy after 3 or 4 years. I got quotes from Elvstrom UK, Crusader and Kemps and all advised against battens for cruising, but proposed better cloth, in this case Vectran for easier furling and long term stability. Kemps made the sail and achieved some roach and therefore a bit more sail area by using a spectra reinforced leech. I only had the sail for a year before I sold the boat but it did exactly what they claimed in terms of shape and furling. If I had kept the boat I would have replaced the jib with one in Vectran. If I remember rightly the offwind furler Kemps made was around 60 sqm (and smaller than normal for the boat) which suggests as flaming says yours might be a bit small - although for short handed use better than being too big!

For obvious reasons I would suggest talking to Kemps. I have bought all my sails from them since Rob started in the early 90s. Perhaps not as easy for you to buy from the UK, but still worth getting a quote to see what they suggest. They have a bias towards Vectran because they have a history through owning the Hood name but it has stood the test of time.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

In haulers?

I've probably got the most stupid genoa tracks known to man ....

 

[st599]

I think Elvstrom are restructuring - having closed their Solent loft. I'd check they're planning on sticking around in your region.

 

[ashtead]

I agree that a detachable bowsprit is advisable for the code 0 (we had one built in stainless box to fit the spare bow roller) but surprised you need an electric furler if you have electric winches in cockpit but maybe not . If you don’t like tracks and are replacing headsail would a self tacker set up not be an option ? Appreciate you want to avoid using uk sailmaker but sanders would also be my choice if in market for new headsail . Pete S advised me to reduce the headsail area on our Bav when we replaced in vectran.

 

[dunedin]

AFAIK, Bavaria has over-large genoas, at least on my generation, due to the charter market in the med. Lots of windless days and the charter companies don't trust charterers with lightweight sails as sometimes the wind does blow really hard, so to save repair costs, they overspecify the genoa instead.

I think that is a huge generalisation. The rig design will have been tweaked and optimised differently for each generation of boat.
And with a furling main, I wouldn’t want to be underpowered jib wise.
I do note from the diagrams that they are proposing 4 vertical battens in the jib. Does the current sail have these? They certainly make best use of a narrow blade jib and increase performance upwind. But they also make fitting and removing the sail quite a hassle and need two people. Not a huge issue twice a year, as long as the batten pockets are robust. But a 120% jib with no battens might be cheaper and simpler, if the sheeting angles can be made to work?

 

[Tranona]

I think that is a huge generalisation. The rig design will have been tweaked and optimised differently for each generation of boat.
And with a furling main, I wouldn’t want to be underpowered jib wise.
I do note from the diagrams that they are proposing 4 vertical battens in the jib. Does the current sail have these? They certainly make best use of a narrow blade jib and increase performance upwind. But they also make fitting and removing the sail quite a hassle and need two people. Not a huge issue twice a year, as long as the batten pockets are robust. But a 120% jib with no battens might be cheaper and simpler, if the sheeting angles can be made to work?

It is true of the earlier J&J designed boats such as the OPs earlier 36 and many people report improved overall performance from a reduced foresail area, typically from the 135% standard to 115%.

However the Vision 44 is somewhat different in that although it is based on the cruiser hull it has more ballast with a lead keel and a taller rig which gives a SA/Disp of 23 with the reported standard sail area of 1120sqm. The furling main would reduce this by around 8% (based on the reduced sail area on my furling main 33). The Elvestrom proposal gives a total sail area of just under 100 which means a SA/Disp of around 20 - still very generous for a 44' cruising boat. While the sail area of a furling main is less than a slab main in reality it makes very little difference to real world cruising performance in terms of passage times. The Op is going to load up the boat with an arch, solar and a sophisticated electrical system with heavy batteries plus the normal liveaboard cruising gear so I guess ultimate performance is lower on the list of priorities than (as he said) easy handling with a lightweight crew.

To me it seems more important to get sails that are simple, low maintenance stable and long lived, hence the suggestion to look at better cloth and not have battens.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Some more background about this upgrade.

This will probably be my last boat, I intend to keep it for over a decade and I'm about 3 years away from retirement. I have three years to turn it into a reliable, energy independent, long-term live aboard. I'm not going to call it "blue water" because to me, the term is meaningless ... I have no fixed plan other than I will be starting off in the eastern Med and a trip to the caribbean, maybe further, is not off the table. I'm not interested in comments about having the wrong boat, it will be fine for whatever I want to do with it. The boat is 2008 but in extra-ordinary condition for its age, showing no signs of extended use.

The problem with a 2008 boat is that it was produced before main, jib and furling code zero was a thing on AWBs, so as well as new sails, the rig is being converted to fit an electric furling code zero in front of the genoa with the necessary clearance top and bottom.

I've got issues with the original sail layout regarding the genoa, as it was originally designed for a large one (151%), so the genoa tracks are intended for a sail of this size. The compromise here is a 120% jib, I wanted a 110% but the clew is not far enough aft for the current tracks - they can't be extended because the stays are in the way, and their positioning means an in-hauler would pull the sheet hard against the stay (see pic in an earlier post) .... so 120% jib it is - it's still 45,5m2 which is big enough for me, and I'm happy with an 83m2 code as we are a small sailing couple.

The boat is already set up with everything electrically controlled. Electric cabin top winch for main furling, outhaul and sheeting, two electric genoa sheet winches, and 2 manual second winches for spinnaker etc. The genoa furling is also electric - hopefully means I can continue sailing for a long time and my partner (48kg) can also operate the sails with ease.

Then comes the question about the sails themselves, it is advantageous for me to get everything done by one company - the company I have chosen is based in Bodensee, Germany - sourcing the sails from Elvstrom and measuring and fitting themselves - they cover Croatia where my boat is kept. AFAIK Elvestrom manufactures in Denmark, France and Tunisia (since they have closed their UK loft) ... the sail material comes from Dimension-Polyant.

I am aiming for the best compromise for sail shape, longevity, sail size and price. AFAIK Dimension-Polyant Pro-Radial sail cloth delivers this, and the samples I got seemed very robust (mechanically). The sails will be radially cut. The vertical battens are something I have always wanted to try since I saw them in action on a Halberg-Rassy, and I'm seeing more and more of them in use - perhaps their time has come? I've been assured that in my particular mast they will present no problems at all. Only stipulation was that the mast needs to be straight when furling. The adjustable backstay will be set up to easily enable this.

The purpose of these posts were to see if there are any showstoppers or something fundamental that I have missed, and hopefully to get some ballpark idea of what this should cost.

So far the advice has been very helpful and I am broadly happy with my plan so far, at least there have been no OMG moments and while I respect the opinions of everyone, buying in the UK with delivery in Europe is just too difficult these days, and I have looked into it. This rules out many suggestions. Sounds like Sanders would be an ideal choice, but again, it's that B-word problem with dealing with companies not in the same customs area. There seems to be a lot of support for Vectran - will look at the cloth I have chosen again.

Thanks for all the replies. This is unfortunately not just a sail-replacement project - that would be too easy ... I want create a boat I can really enjoy sailing with the stipulation that it must be in-mast reefing, and the major sail-controls need to be usable by a 48kg, 5ft tall woman. Hopefully the planned modifications will give us that.

 

[TiggerToo]

I read this post with interest. Thanks to all contributors.
Good luck with your plans.