Old manual inflatable lifejackets.

[MontyMariner]

You don't know anything about materials science, do you?

Ah! You've read my CV, but I guess you think it immaterial.

 

[MontyMariner]

I inflate to test my inflatable LF using a air pump and not by mouth so not to all moisture into the LJ.

A good point. That's how I was taught.

 

[MontyMariner]

Speaking of materials, this post has some relevance
Dingy Foredeck Storage
but what do I know.

 

[B27]

Do you have info about condition of his LJ's that we do not have ?

At best it's 20 year old plastics.
At worst it's very degraded 20 year old plastics.

Several Lifejackets, so clearly an intention to inflict this rubbish on other people.

Totally unacceptable.

 

[thinwater]

My takeaway is that we have no idea how to judge the lifespan of a complex fabricated product combining, I surmise, both welding and adhesives.

I know some things about nylon and polyester vs. UV and oxygen, but I have no idea what adhesives are used. Some shoes last for many decades, some the adhesives fail in 10-20 years.

We don't know much, and at least some of the manufacturers have a poor reputation for forerightness and real world testing (failed leg loops when buckles break, bladders that come over your head in waves ...).

 

[Alicatt]

Attack with a stanley knife then off to the tip. There are some shocking ones on FB marketplace at the moment. One marked Sowester who went bust in 1998. Looks mint, but would you want family or friends to wear it?

I have a Sowester Osprey automatic LJ it was tested 2 weeks ago, manually inflated and left, got busy and only got back to it 2 days later, it was still inflated when I got back, a new gas cylinder and the salt tab replaced looks and feels as good as new.
Still, along with the service kit I also bought various new life jackets for the kids and grand kids and not the buoyancy aids that my daughter had bought for her sons as they don't keep the kid's face out the water

 

[William_H]

Also, if they did not fire, would they hold air if inflated manually?

On a manual life jacket failing to fire, is almost always due to an empty cylinder (or not screwed in) The fire mechanism is simple and reliable. It is very easy to check the cylinder itself by just looking at the membrane which is intended to be punctured. You can also weight the cylinder although I have had variable results there.
So inflate manually check for maintaining pressure. Check cylinder,should be OK. if cylinder Has that characteristic hole in mebrane it is empty. You can confirm by sucking on the end of the cylinder if you can get any air out she is dud.
Of course fitting the LJ then inflating is useful training, especially if done in water. But then you will need a new cylinder and witness clip. The witness clip is a small green plastic clip on some types of LJ which in effect clips the actuating lever in place. It is easily broken on actuation and it's absence is quick indication that it has been let off.
I found on 2 out of 14 Ljs at club that cylinder was not screwed in. On closer inspection cylinder had been emptied.But LJ was still folded neatly. I can only assume some boat owner has stolen the good cylinder and replaced with empty one. A bit low!!!
ol'will

 

[Refueler]

At best it's 20 year old plastics.
At worst it's very degraded 20 year old plastics.

Several Lifejackets, so clearly an intention to inflict this rubbish on other people.

Totally unacceptable.

I still see no real definitive argument from you. Your whole case rests on 20yr age.

If you were here at my place - I would place in front of you a LJ and then ask you to tell if anything wrong ... how old .... etc. If all your case rests on is age ... then you would be at a loss with it.

Paul mentions 10 quid a year for a 10yr rotation ... fine ... not unreasonable.

The age argument is one that runs every time flares .. LJ's etc are mentioned. The same old tired comments come out.

I am not advocating risking life by casually accepting LJ's ... I have made plain that carefully checking and testing should be made - and that I maintain for new as well as older. Regardless of whether its just bought or is 10 .. 15yrs old .... test to be sure.,

Just to comment - and do not think the financial side makes any difference to my buying or not - but I have 4 boats ... 3 of which are Latvian Registered - that means I am required to carry LJ / aids for the registered carrying capacity of each boat. LuLu = 4, Lady L:u = 3, Superanne = 5. Technically not supposed to transfer aids from one boat to another ...
The 4th is Swedish registered ... but will be subject to Race Rules and therefore have 6 .......
Just saying.

Oh and please note that for many years I was responsible officer for all Life-Saving gear on ships I sailed on. It was my job to test / maintain / replace ..... giving me a foundation to at least have some idea on this subject.

 

[Refueler]

I have a Sowester Osprey automatic LJ it was tested 2 weeks ago, manually inflated and left, got busy and only got back to it 2 days later, it was still inflated when I got back, a new gas cylinder and the salt tab replaced looks and feels as good as new.
Still, along with the service kit I also bought various new life jackets for the kids and grand kids and not the buoyancy aids that my daughter had bought for her sons as they don't keep the kid's face out the water

Buoyancy Aids are designed for conscious swimmers - they are well known to actually turn an injured / unconscious person over so their back is up and cause airways to be under water.

For many years LJ's had similar characteristic - the old Kapok LJ's on ships were notorious for it. Then they started to add rear flotation collars to try and hold head up ... evolving into todays LJ's ...
The problem of keeping airways clear still hasn't been completely solved ... even with sprayhoods etc.

 

[Mister E]

Can the old cylinders be used in bike tyre inflator?

 

[wonkywinch]

Can the old cylinders be used in bike tyre inflator?

I was taught that cylinders don't age. As long as they are not corroded and are still the correct weight (marked) then they are still good. If you were concerned, you could always donate them to Big Clive for his Sodastream experiments.

Another You Tube rabbit hole for forumites ...

 

[Sandy]

I was taught that cylinders don't age. As long as they are not corroded and are still the correct weight (marked) then they are still good. If you were concerned, you could always donate them to Big Clive for his Sodastream experiments.

Another You Tube rabbit hole for forumites ...

An excellent rabbit hole to find yourself in.

 

[Refueler]

Can the old cylinders be used in bike tyre inflator?

Why not ?

 

[Boathook]

Can the old cylinders be used in bike tyre inflator?

I don't see why not but they may have more capacity than the tyre. Personally I prefer a pump for my bike.

 

[B27]

I still see no real definitive argument from you. Your whole case rests on 20yr age.
...

It's safety equipment of the last resort.
I think the onus is on you to prove it's good.

 

[Pete7]

It's safety equipment of the last resort.
I think the onus is on you to prove it's good.

Gently puffing up a LJ is one thing, but using it for real surely puts a huge amount of stress on the material as it instantly over inflates with very cold CO2.

I have a 20 year old Compass one in front of me now, holds air but the older style "hammar" actuator is £32, or actuator and cylinder £46 to replace against £55 for a new basic LJ. A second younger LJ goes soft in under an hour, shame as it has the cheaper more modern actuator.

Both destined for the Stanley knife.

 

[Refueler]

It's safety equipment of the last resort.
I think the onus is on you to prove it's good.

No it is not.

I have put my case clear and simple .... as others have as well. If you are only able to quote '20yrs' with no other supporting evidence. Case over.

I have made it plain that I do not disagree with replacement - that's fine. But what I do not agree with is binning for sake of binning.

Another has suggested giving the jacket a real hard time in the test inflation .... testing not only welded but also sewn seams. Why can you not accept that ? Or is it just that you've dug a hole and trying desperately to fine way to climb out ? Sorry to be blunt - but I understand your opinion - but your brushing aside any contrary case that fails to agree with you. You may say I am doing same - not true. As I have also supported replacement - if that is what person wants to do ..... I have just suggested testing.

 

[Refueler]

Gently puffing up a LJ is one thing, but using it for real surely puts a huge amount of stress on the material as it instantly over inflates with very cold CO2.

I have a 20 year old Compass one in front of me now, holds air but the older style "hammar" actuator is £32, or actuator and cylinder £46 to replace against £55 for a new basic LJ. A second younger LJ goes soft in under an hour, shame as it has the cheaper more modern actuator.

Both destined for the Stanley knife.

Error there sorry ..... LJ's do not over-inflate .... the excess if any is designed to vent - as do Life-rafts also.

But your point of stress is accepted .. and why I support another's testing and giving the jacket 'a hard time' while inflated .... to test those very welded and sewn seams.

Something that has been ignored - it is not a good idea to re-use a LJ or Raft after real emergency use ... because of the stresses .... it may all seem fine when deflated - but this is one case where I would suggest replacement regardless.

 

[thinwater]

On a manual life jacket failing to fire, is almost always due to an empty cylinder (or not screwed in) The fire mechanism is simple and reliable. It is very easy to check the cylinder itself by just looking at the membrane which is intended to be punctured. You can also weight the cylinder although I have had variable results there.
So inflate manually check for maintaining pressure. Check cylinder,should be OK. if cylinder Has that characteristic hole in mebrane it is empty. You can confirm by sucking on the end of the cylinder if you can get any air out she is dud.
Of course fitting the LJ then inflating is useful training, especially if done in water. But then you will need a new cylinder and witness clip. The witness clip is a small green plastic clip on some types of LJ which in effect clips the actuating lever in place. It is easily broken on actuation and it's absence is quick indication that it has been let off.
I found on 2 out of 14 Ljs at club that cylinder was not screwed in. On closer inspection cylinder had been emptied.But LJ was still folded neatly. I can only assume some boat owner has stolen the good cylinder and replaced with empty one. A bit low!!!
ol'will

I should have been more clear. Do they hold air if you blow them up with your mouth or bellows or compressor?

If the bladder fails, what is the mechanism of failure. One poster said the manual inflation tube pulled out. That sounds like a glue failure, which I can believe. We know the most common death in 20+ year inflatable boats is seam failure.

No one is posting what the failure mechanism is, just rants over whether age is just a number.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Error there sorry ..... LJ's do not over-inflate .... the excess if any is designed to vent - as do Life-rafts also.

But your point of stress is accepted .. and why I support another's testing and giving the jacket 'a hard time' while inflated .... to test those very welded and sewn seams.

Something that has been ignored - it is not a good idea to re-use a LJ or Raft after real emergency use ... because of the stresses .... it may all seem fine when deflated - but this is one case where I would suggest replacement regardless.

But if you don't put the same, or similar, stresses on the LJ while testing, how do you know it will withstand a real emergency use ? If you do subject it to the same stresses you would need to replace it after testing, if following the above advice.

Irrespective of lightly inflating a LJ and inspecting it, there is no real way of testing the welds, stitching and material integrity and these do not have an indefinite life expectancy. At some point, they will fail. We cannot be sure when that time will be, so it makes sense to change it within a time that it would be reasonable to assume the construction and materials would not be likely to fail, yet.