Old manual inflatable lifejackets.
- Thread starter Gryphon2
- Start date
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Best notShould we apply that sensible test to skipper and crew, too?
thinwater
Well-known member
Risk vs. cost. Oh dear. The math is different for each of us. Some find the purchase cost ($200/number of uses = cost per outing) too high. I find the comfort cost too high and barely ever wear a PFD, but I do whitewater kayaking, when my perceived risk is high (whirlpools and you can get trapped under a rock).
I wear a dry suit (kayaking and sometimes sailing) when the water is below some threshold (which it is nearly always below in the UK) because my perceived risk of cold water shock is relatively high, much higher than the people on this thread, I believe. Isn't that funny.
In warm water areas many of us grow up swimming and surfing around coral. We have little fear of water and getting knocked in the head is always a possibility there too. I'm guessing few on this thread surf. It's not that I can swim an ocean, but in the summer the idea of falling in, on a nice day within a mile or so of shore, is just not that frightening, depending on one's swimming skills. Surfers are used to getting turned upside down and breaking waves. We can tread water in saltwater for more than an hour without feeling tired.
As for retiring after an emergency use...
I wear a dry suit (kayaking and sometimes sailing) when the water is below some threshold (which it is nearly always below in the UK) because my perceived risk of cold water shock is relatively high, much higher than the people on this thread, I believe. Isn't that funny.
In warm water areas many of us grow up swimming and surfing around coral. We have little fear of water and getting knocked in the head is always a possibility there too. I'm guessing few on this thread surf. It's not that I can swim an ocean, but in the summer the idea of falling in, on a nice day within a mile or so of shore, is just not that frightening, depending on one's swimming skills. Surfers are used to getting turned upside down and breaking waves. We can tread water in saltwater for more than an hour without feeling tired.
As for retiring after an emergency use...
- Rather like retiring a climbing rope after a fall. Not happening unless the rope is visibly damaged or it was a truely epic whipper *fell from above the belayer, to well past the belayer).
- Was the emergency any different from jumping in a pool? Maybe. Maybe not. Much depends on the recovery.
DownWest
Well-known member
Nope, the mouth inflation valve popped out of the inflation tube. There was no sign of perishing of the tube.
My current pair of LJs have both been used in anger. They are manual only as I mostly sail in small boats. One functioned fine, but the other was fired by pulling the cord sideways, rather than down, and that pulled the lever out out of the firing mechanism which allowed the firing pin to escape and the gas followed. It would still have inflated by mouth, but the cavalry arrived before the wearer was worried enough to try. Quickfit with harnesses.
Normally they are kept at home, so not subject to damp or other degrading situations.
Refueler
Well-known member
1, It is highly unlikely that you can mimic in any real sense - the real emergency use of the items - which is why I stated clearly REAL EMERGENCY use.
2. I do not read anyone even hinting at indefinite life expectancy. For myself - I have stated clearly condition can be affected by use and storage.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Like i said then "But if you don't put the same, or similar, stresses on the LJ while testing, how do you know it will withstand a real emergency use ?"
Simple answer is, you don't. You have to decide how long it's reasonable to expect the welds, stitching and materials to be able to withstand a "real emergency". Personally, i wouldn't keep a LJ for anywhere near 20 years, not matter how it's stored.
Refueler
Well-known member
Fine ...
Pete7
Well-known member
oh okay, perhaps the way I worded it. However, there is more gas in a 33g cylinder than is required to inflate a 150N LJ. Interesting, the latest Seago and Crewsaver 165N LJs have the same 33g cartridge. My experience of inflating LJs and watching a customer inflate one when I was giving the safety brief explaining the toggle which he then pulled
is they are instant, and expanding CO2 is freezing. So my option is to dispose of any that are suspect or getting old. For me that's approaching 20 years, others are of course free to choose there own.
Refueler
Well-known member
I think you'll find that the freezing part is actually the cylinder and the junction to the bladder.
Pete7
Well-known member
A CO2 extinguisher was an excellent way of cooling a crate of beer down on exercise.
MontyMariner
Well-known member
How did you find this out - by observation when you triggered the cylinder?
The calculation is not an easy one.
See: Random: How many cu' are in a CO2 cartridge? - Northwest Dive Club
Excess gas at room temperature could be the gas required to compensate for water temperature and possible depth below the surface when fired.
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thinwater
Well-known member
Let's discuss that. It's a good point.
What is real testing? As I recall, the only strength test is for a person to jump into the water from about 2 meters (could be wrong about the height). For example, the leg loops are NOT required to hold body weight, and several have been reported to fail when hoisting a swimmer by the harness attachment point in practice. PFDs with harnesses have to meet a chest loop strength standard, but that has nothing to do with this discussion (the integrity of the harness is probably quite high to 20 years +, even with multiple emergency uses, based on the collective history of MUCH harsher treatment of mountaineering equipment).
- Leg loops are probably under strength. They all use Fastex buckles, and they are not rated for body weight working load (breaking strength, maybe). But they probably won't be damaged and their failure is non-critical (they are good, but PWDs can function without them--but they are darn important when recovering hypodermic or weak victims). They would also be simple to replace.
- The bladder could have been pulled on or smashed against some sharp part of the rail or stanchion. Serious concern and not obvious what you inspect for.
- Same with inflation valve. What abuse did it take? Did it snag?
- Vests have been damaged in breaking surf (Spinlock failure). I think this is unusual.
The testing requirements are pretty lame, IMO. There are also no requirements that reflect durability during recovery. I guess the assumption is that once they have a hold of the victim, if the bladder pops it has already done its job.
Interesting. The lame leg loop standard is enough to make me very suspicious.
Refueler
Well-known member
Yes .... agreed ..... my point is that the freezing part of the CO2 discharge is actually short and soon rises above freezing - but still cold I agree.
Spent many occasions firing of CO2 Fire Extinguishers which have far more capability to freeze anything than a small 33gr cylinder.
I also still have my Beer Kegs from Beer making that take large CO2 cylinders ...
Refueler
Well-known member
Thigh straps are only there to prevent LJ from rising up and causing victim to have face below water ... they are not designed to support lifting of the victim. The jacket fit itself is designed to carry out that function ... trouble is too many do not actually wear it secure enough ...
Boathook
Well-known member
I'm guilty of that. I hate the chest straps being 'tight'. My present LJ does have 2 crotch / leg loop straps and on my previous one I fitted an extra one.
Sandy
Well-known member
Oh goodie a testing thread. It will make a change to anchors.
Boathook
Well-known member
Going through and testing the lifejackets brought back from the boat last week.
1st failure, my Crewsaver. It is old and the seams are sound but the bit holding the bottle, etc failed on the rubber part glued onto the lifejacket. I had inflated it well and then heard a 'hissing' and traced it to the fitting. Still took a bit of pulling to remove it from the lifejacket.
Got a few on test and a few more to inflate. Following comments on this thread I'm now putting weight onto the inflated jackets as an extra 'test'.
Whether I replace it will depend on how many more fail.. The majority are manual inflate as recommended at the time by MOCRA (Multihull Offshore Cruising Racing Association) but any new ones will be auto as the chances of my 9m Catalac capsizing is fairly remote !
1st failure, my Crewsaver. It is old and the seams are sound but the bit holding the bottle, etc failed on the rubber part glued onto the lifejacket. I had inflated it well and then heard a 'hissing' and traced it to the fitting. Still took a bit of pulling to remove it from the lifejacket.
Got a few on test and a few more to inflate. Following comments on this thread I'm now putting weight onto the inflated jackets as an extra 'test'.
Whether I replace it will depend on how many more fail.. The majority are manual inflate as recommended at the time by MOCRA (Multihull Offshore Cruising Racing Association) but any new ones will be auto as the chances of my 9m Catalac capsizing is fairly remote !
William_H
Well-known member
That is rather a dramatic failure. I think you will find that the fitting in to the bladder is a schrader valve as used on a car. The silvery nut as seen bottom of RH picture is screwed on to the end of the schrader valve. Which has inside a one way valve. Which also supports the cylinder and puncture mechanism. Certainly wortha tug to test bonding of valve to bladder. ol'will
thinwater
Well-known member
Not entirely correct. No matter how you adjust the chest strap, it is ALWAYS possible for the shoulders of a limp body (including an exhausted swimmer), with the hand up, to slide out. This has been proven many times. I tested this when I was climbing weekly and could do pull-ups until you were tired of watching. If I adjusted the straps so I could just fully expand my lungs, I could still slide out if I raised my hands, which is why you ALWAYS keep your arms down when lifting with a horse collar or Lifesling.
That the standard is only to hold the vest down is true. They are not required to withstand the impact of a sailor jumping into the water with an inflated vest, which can happen. They are not required to withstand lifting. Both are lame IMO, since failures have happened and resulted in fatalities. How hard could it be to make slightly stronger loops and then test them to a proper standard?
I don't believe the standard tests in tough enough conditions.
Refueler
Well-known member
Having many times been lifted into Helicopters .... completed tank rescue drills etc. - the slip out of harness is correct ... and is reason arms are kept or even in terms of unconscious casualty strapped to sides ...
But of course an overboard casualty is not quite same as in this - the lifting of a casualty would not normally be a straight lift .... more often an angled lift where scrabbling to get 'body' to roll up onto boat - or slide over gunwhale job ....