New V Old

[Bobc]

I


Also aren't the Bavarias, at least now, using solid wood for their interiors and not MDF with veneers?

My 2003 Bavaria is all solid Mahogany and Sapele-faced ply. No MDF anywhere.

 

[geem]

I think, to be fair, cockpits and accomodation have changed to reflect the time a yacht spends entertaining and accomodating compared to sailing. Even the most avid sailors will likely spend more time stopped than sailing, and a cockpit designed for gin and dinner can also be made to be seamanlike for sailing. While it's a lovely notion that we all spend every minute on our boats in the middle of the atlantic in oilies getting drenched in a F9 the reality just isn't that for people with jobs and families.

They were designed for the UK. The weather is crap 90% of the time. You entertained down below?
If you sail around North Wales, in my experience you are getting drenched in F9. The average wind strength in Liverpool bay is twice the average wind speed of Southampton.

 

[lustyd]

Ours is in the UK and we had the bimini up a lot this year to pevent sunburn and still got burnt! We also spent a good deal of time this year sitting at anchor in the cockpit watching the sun go down. Admittedly the newer models are nicer below and let more light in, but I can't imagine shutting myself down below with even fewer windows, and smaller cockpits aren't as nice for lounging. Granted, my cockpit is terrible for single handing as it's from the era of single big wheels but we get around that by having a second person on board

 

[geem]

Ours is in the UK and we had the bimini up a lot this year to pevent sunburn and still got burnt! We also spent a good deal of time this year sitting at anchor in the cockpit watching the sun go down. Admittedly the newer models are nicer below and let more light in, but I can't imagine shutting myself down below with even fewer windows, and smaller cockpits aren't as nice for lounging. Granted, my cockpit is terrible for single handing as it's from the era of single big wheels but we get around that by having a second person on board

Fortunately we have a big old boat. Lots of space down below ( but not as much as a new boat). A cockpit that seats 10 and huge flush decks. It was great in the couple of weeks we had in the Scillies in July. Now in the Algarve and still got the sun cover up. Can't complain ?

 

[lustyd]

I am wondering whether the answer might just be a big boat of any age ?

 

[Csfisher]

Why keep coming back to the Fulmar versus 2015 Bavaria? The OP has £100k to spend so a more realistic comparison with the Bavaria would be something like a 1990s HR36 or late model Moody 36 with some money set aside for upgrades, which is what I chose. It might be that the OP prefers the Bavaria in which case so be it but at least keep the comparisons realistic. Given my preferences the Moody was the clear winner and if you plan to keep the boat long term (the OP may not want to do this) the Bavaria isn't going to remain maintenance free for ever, although given my friends experience with his late model Cruiser 33 bought when 3 years old it might start sooner than you think but I'm sure this is an isolated example

The HR36 mk2 is exactly the older boat I have in mind. There is a rather nice example for sale right now in Hamble which I VERY nearly chartered from Hamble Point yacht charters until work made me cancel late notice unfortunately. The fact that it WAS a charter boat may be a point of concern, but I do rather like the look of the HR36. Nice interior, I like the look of the hull too. From what I can tell, it has a relatively good turn of speed too. That year of HR is JUST on the limit of my budget though and may be just on the wrong side of it unfortunately if I want a nice clean example which I won't be spending too much time trying to get back in to a nice clean state. Too many 'older' boats I have sailed just felt awful to be on as every bilge had a thick layer of grime, and deck fittings had corrosion. I know this comes down to maintenance and the type of previous owner of course.

If I bought 'new' I would probably look to keep for 5 years; then assess how it is suiting me and then either upgrade to larger or perhaps a more blue water cruising oriented if I decided I wanted to go that way and I'd accept that I'd be taking a huge hit financially by selling towards the end of the lifespan of a lot of components. If I went older and more solid, I'd be more likely to keep for much longer since I'd almost be certainly be investing money in one or more of the following: sails, spray hoods, hardware, electronics, decking, or a host of other items that require refitting.

 

[Csfisher]

One of these seems to tick most (or all) of your boxes and is in budget (VAT would need to be paid on this particular one). One berthed behind me was recently for sale for £80K, very nice condition, i think i t was a 2003.

2012 Bavaria 36 Cruiser Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld

VAT issues aside, how expensive is it to ship a boat that size say back to the UK?
I would love to sail it myself, but that amount of time off work and the berthing fees along the way just wouldn't be feasible.

Alternatively, would it be cheaper to hire a delivery crew?
It's frustrating about the EU VAT thing, but my options would open up significantly if I could look further afield - even if just accross the water to France, Germany or the Netherlands etc.

 

[Csfisher]

Sorry Skylark but there are a few errors in your comments. The LOA of a 2015 Bav 33 is 9.99m compared to 9.7m of the Fulmar. The Bav beam is 3.42m compared to 3.33m. So volume wise the Bav will be much larger due to being longer, has an almost stem bow, greater beam a, fuller transom, and higher freeboard, so not a anything directly comparable.

Other differences includes the standard draft is 1.95m compared to 1.5m, displacement is 5,200Kg compared to 4,490Kg, the keel is 1,300Kg compared to 1914Kg. As to the weights, the method of calculating displacement is probably more accurate today than 40 years ago, so I expect the Fulmar to be possibly slightly heavier than quoted. Even so they cannot be called a close resemblence in size.
2015 Bavaria CRUISER 33 @ Top Speed
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/4/4b/Fulmar_brochure_1980_2.PDF

As to your comment about dreary and claustrophobic, again that is a matter of opinion. Many of the visitors at the boat show comment it was nice to see real wood and found it very relaxing to be in. In another thread I commented that on opening day a group of 4 young men in their early 20's came onboard near to closing time. They sail out of Poole and said they found the IKEA style of the modern boats at the show not to their liking and loved being on a "traditional" yacht finished in real wood and felt very stable in the water. Obviously they were not the only people to make comments like this, but they should be in the target audience for the modern offerings. Just goes to show you idea of a yacht does not appeal to all age groups as you think.

As to your "home made" comment, well again it just shows your ignornce. Westerly woodwork was hand made in their own workshops by skilled craftsment, in fact the more I look closely at some of they workmanship, the more I am impressed. By comparison using an internal keel matrix to fit bulkheads and furniture is guaranteed to be extremely accurate and modern interiors are prepared using CNC machines - something that was not available 40 years ago. I certainly would say Westerly did a good job at that time, possibly not quite as good as HR or Swan, but they were pitched to be at a lower priced market. Even today most Westerlys hold their value better than many of the continental built boats of a similar size and age.

Strangely the person who commented about Sunsail has worked at Port Solent, in the past he worked crewing on superyachts, recently has been racing J99's and J109's in the Solent. 2 years ago he decided to buy his first boat, his choice was an old Buchannan wooden yacht that was heading to be cut up. He has worked alongside some excellent shiprights to save this classic yacht, cost has been a lower than what she is worth today. He does not participate in yachting forums, so I doubt if he would confirm the comments he made, but I certainly believed him when he gave me the information as he had nothing to gain by telling me. If you carefully read all of my posts in this thread you will see I try to give straight and accurate information - usually backed up with links or suggestions on where to check the comments out.

In my first post in this thread I tried to give information that differed from the "I've got a newish boat and have not had any problems brigade". If you think that Csfisher, the OP, should not have been told of these problems, then what is the point of this forum.

Edit, I forgot the links to where the specifications came from.

To clarify, I do appreciate the vary of respones. It is helpful. The keel issues are concerning, although I didn't realise these were caused by hitting a sill gate - knowing this know does make me feel a whole lot better.

I'm sure any yacht with a fin keel would be liable to suffer damage in a grounding or hitting a sill; the momentum of a boat applied over the lever of the length of the keel I doubt any hull would withstand without some damage. SO then it becomes a question of full keel vs the fins and that wasn't my question; if I go for a fin keel then I accept the risk in the case of a grounding.

 

[Csfisher]

Here's one for sale in the UK
2011 Bavaria 36 Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld
Its a lot of boat for the money but to me it still looks like an economy boat in terms of the accommodation.
It won't be to everyone's taste but spend the same money on a well kept Moody 36 and this is what you get (this one is no longer for sale and it's rare to find one with teak decks)
Boat Details - John Rodriguez Yachts

I must admit, with most HRs out of my price range, the moodys are very tempting boats.
When I first started looking at boats, it was actually moodys I started looking at partly because of price but also because I had heard all the stories about newer boats. But then I started questioning my requirements and debating if actually a newer boat might be the better way to go.

 

[Skylark]

Sorry Skylark but there are a few errors in your comments. The LOA of a 2015 Bav 33 is 9.99m compared to 9.7m of the Fulmar. The Bav beam is 3.42m compared to 3.33m. So volume wise the Bav will be much larger due to being longer, has an almost stem bow, greater beam a, fuller transom, and higher freeboard, so not a anything directly comparable.

Other differences includes the standard draft is 1.95m compared to 1.5m, displacement is 5,200Kg compared to 4,490Kg, the keel is 1,300Kg compared to 1914Kg. As to the weights, the method of calculating displacement is probably more accurate today than 40 years ago, so I expect the Fulmar to be possibly slightly heavier than quoted. Even so they cannot be called a close resemblence in size.
2015 Bavaria CRUISER 33 @ Top Speed
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/4/4b/Fulmar_brochure_1980_2.PDF

As to your comment about dreary and claustrophobic, again that is a matter of opinion. Many of the visitors at the boat show comment it was nice to see real wood and found it very relaxing to be in. In another thread I commented that on opening day a group of 4 young men in their early 20's came onboard near to closing time. They sail out of Poole and said they found the IKEA style of the modern boats at the show not to their liking and loved being on a "traditional" yacht finished in real wood and felt very stable in the water. Obviously they were not the only people to make comments like this, but they should be in the target audience for the modern offerings. Just goes to show you idea of a yacht does not appeal to all age groups as you think.

As to your "home made" comment, well again it just shows your ignornce. Westerly woodwork was hand made in their own workshops by skilled craftsment, in fact the more I look closely at some of they workmanship, the more I am impressed. By comparison using an internal keel matrix to fit bulkheads and furniture is guaranteed to be extremely accurate and modern interiors are prepared using CNC machines - something that was not available 40 years ago. I certainly would say Westerly did a good job at that time, possibly not quite as good as HR or Swan, but they were pitched to be at a lower priced market. Even today most Westerlys hold their value better than many of the continental built boats of a similar size and age.

Strangely the person who commented about Sunsail has worked at Port Solent, in the past he worked crewing on superyachts, recently has been racing J99's and J109's in the Solent. 2 years ago he decided to buy his first boat, his choice was an old Buchannan wooden yacht that was heading to be cut up. He has worked alongside some excellent shiprights to save this classic yacht, cost has been a lower than what she is worth today. He does not participate in yachting forums, so I doubt if he would confirm the comments he made, but I certainly believed him when he gave me the information as he had nothing to gain by telling me. If you carefully read all of my posts in this thread you will see I try to give straight and accurate information - usually backed up with links or suggestions on where to check the comments out.

In my first post in this thread I tried to give information that differed from the "I've got a newish boat and have not had any problems brigade". If you think that Csfisher, the OP, should not have been told of these problems, then what is the point of this forum.

Edit, I forgot the links to where the specifications came from.

The OP asked about boats costing around £100k and you drifted the thread by putting yourself on a pedestal and showing off your old boat refurbishment prowess. Surely then, you are making a comparison so I’m merely examining the two, very different offerings.

There’s room for all on the water, we all make personal choices as to our definition of sailing. I simply don’t understand posters with Evangelical obsession to get newcomers to follow in their exact footsteps.

Please don’t call me “ignorant” simply because I found the appearance of the internal finish of your boat “home made”. If you don’t want others to comment, don’t post pictures.

Regarding the comment that 3-4 of the fleet has extensive keel matrix repair every year, I’ll repeat, I don’t believe it.

 

[Skylark]

There you go. For you, interior is everything. Interiors now sell boats. It doesn't matter how they sail.
Fulmars were used in North Wales as sailing school boats. They would go out in any weather sailing around Anglesey. A demanding place to sail. It's not the Solent They cope admirably.
The cockpit to somebody else would be seaman like and perfect on such a boat.
The Westerly Fulmar doesn't have a cheap home made interior but it is of a time. Good quality teak faced ply. It's dark by modern standards but it is durable.
Horses for courses.

Yes, Mr Geem, interiors sell boats, welcome to the real world.
I bought my boat because it suits my aspirations of and definition of sailing. I have absolutely no intention of living aboard it nor taking it through the North West Passage.

Just as your boat suits you, my boat suits me. The difference is that I don’t want to force-feed my choice to everyone else. They are free to make their own choices and I’ll be the first to wave if I see them on the water.

I remember the Plas Menai Fulmars well. I wintered in Penrhyn for many years so witnessed first hand the work required to keep them going. I did CS at PM the second week that their Starlight 35 was entered into service. It had lots of snagging issues including that it had to be returned to the manufacturer to have the hull removed and a new one fitted.

Also worth noting that PM then bought a couple of Jeanneau Sunfast 37 and for many years these too went out in all weathers around Anglesey. You’re forgetting that I know Anglesey waters extremely well ?

Are you suggesting that The Solent can’t, at times, be a challenging place to sail? Is this another example of your blinkered views ?

 

[geem]

Yes, Mr Geem, interiors sell boats, welcome to the real world.
I bought my boat because it suits my aspirations of and definition of sailing. I have absolutely no intention of living aboard it nor taking it through the North West Passage.

Just as your boat suits you, my boat suits me. The difference is that I don’t want to force-feed my choice to everyone else. They are free to make their own choices and I’ll be the first to wave if I see them on the water.

I remember the Plas Menai Fulmars well. I wintered in Penrhyn for many years so witnessed first hand the work required to keep them going. I did CS at PM the second week that their Starlight 35 was entered into service. It had lots of snagging issues including that it had to be returned to the manufacturer to have the hull removed and a new one fitted.

Also worth noting that PM then bought a couple of Jeanneau Sunfast 37 and for many years these too went out in all weathers around Anglesey. You’re forgetting that I know Anglesey waters extremely well ?

Are you suggesting that The Solent can’t, at times, be a challenging place to sail? Is this another example of your blinkered views ?
[/QUOTE

I thought it was the new boat brigade telling everybody new boats were best not me forcing old boats on people. They are capable of making up their own mind. I just believe with passion that new boats are not best. They are an option.
They don't suit everybody. I respect the fact you bought a new boat because that was the right decision for you. It's not the right decision for everybody.
I am not blinkered. I am pointing out to you that it's horses for courses. We buy boats for different reasons. The whole of the UK, indeed the whole of the world can have challenging conditions but the Solent has half the average wind strength of the NW. It doesn't get called lake Solent for nothing. I have raced there many times.
Nothing wrong with Sunfast 37. A pretty steady boat. 20 years old so hardly new. A quite ordinary boat. Raced them a few times. Nothing special. Ditto sailed Fulmars.
Would you care to mention what was falling off the Fulmars that kept PM so busy?

 

[Ammonite]

I must admit, with most HRs out of my price range, the moodys are very tempting boats.
When I first started looking at boats, it was actually moodys I started looking at partly because of price but also because I had heard all the stories about newer boats. But then I started questioning my requirements and debating if actually a newer boat might be the better way to go.

Exactly the conundrum I found myself in! The HR36 was about £20k more than I wanted to spend when upgrades are factored in and while my head said a newer boat would make sense I really struggle with the interiors. The Moody while not quite in the same league as the HR isn't far behind and makes better use of the space available. The passage berth also means the kids can have separate berths (this alone is worth the cost of the boat!) and the aft berth is fantastic. The overall feeling is also one of quality / solidity and despite the usual teething problems you get with what was in theory a well maintained boat I'm really pleased with my choice...but it won't be for everyone!

 

[ashtead]

Well it seems the OP has reached the point (after Mr Scala has eaten all his mobo popcorn) of having a choice between a Moody 36 with a stern cabin ,a number of which have benn for sale here at Haslar if of interest if sure the sell quite quickly ,and the newer Bav or say Hanse with shorter length . If pale blond interiors etc appeal then many pluses to the newer 33 /34 length but likewise with the 36. ImHO the moody sails more slowly but reefs later and tends to have the in mast reefing ,has a small cockpit and will be needing more spent day one and might come with aging teak decks(avoid these) or the light quicker new boat with new gear (same kit as fitted to our HR friends) but perhaps a smaller engine ,more bounce if motoring into chop,no bowthruster and might have smaller water and fuel tanks?. Alternative step back further in time maybe and buy a HR 34 say and acknowledge the issues in terms of maintenance but take pleasure in the carpet and heavy woodwork . All I can suggest is get out there and maybe by using an owners forum gain insight but as we have seen such fora can attract apostles if not zealots. You don’t say your intended home port but enquiry there might reveal some off markets opportunity and comparisons of the choices. Many Moody owners stay with the brand but so do other makes so you see moody 36 owners trading up to moody41ac (even though these share many parts found on Hanse) but are more modern in style. As if you enjoy the ownership experience you might be tempted to move on maybe don’t over invest in your day one boat though but learn what works and what you lust for in your year 5 replacement ?

 

[matt1]

The OP asked about boats costing around £100k and you drifted the thread by putting yourself on a pedestal and showing off your old boat refurbishment prowess. Surely then, you are making a comparison so I’m merely examining the two, very different offerings.

There’s room for all on the water, we all make personal choices as to our definition of sailing. I simply don’t understand posters with Evangelical obsession to get newcomers to follow in their exact footsteps.

Please don’t call me “ignorant” simply because I found the appearance of the internal finish of your boat “home made”. If you don’t want others to comment, don’t post pictures.

Regarding the comment that 3-4 of the fleet has extensive keel matrix repair every year, I’ll repeat, I don’t believe it.

Don't worry Skylark, despite not being critical of anyone's boat / brand / age of boat etc I was accused of being blinkered by someone who took his Westerly to the boat show on behalf of the Westerly Owners Association and started a "British only" thread claiming him and his Westerly mates reckon Westerly's represent 50% of the top 4 classic's.

Oh the irony ;-) he he

 

[Skylark]

Don't worry Skylark, despite not being critical of anyone's boat / brand / age of boat etc I was accused of being blinkered by someone who took his Westerly to the boat show on behalf of the Westerly Owners Association and started a "British only" thread claiming him and his Westerly mates reckon Westerly's represent 50% of the top 4 classic's.

Oh the irony ;-) he he

Shocking. I hope you recovered and have not been unduly affected by such a slight

 

[Skylark]

I thought it was the new boat brigade telling everybody new boats were best not me forcing old boats on people.


Would you care to mention what was falling off the Fulmars that kept PM so busy?

With respect, try reading many of your own posts and you may change that thought

With regard to the Fulmars, I said "the work required to keep them going". You interpreted this to be "falling off the Fulmars"

They were heavily used School boats so just like all heavily used School boats they required a lot of maintenance. I recall that deck hardware took a bit of a bashing.

Fortunately, in that era all students were issued with rose coloured glasses to enable them to tolerate the dank, claustrophobic interiors.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Don't worry Skylark, despite not being critical of anyone's boat / brand / age of boat etc I was accused of being blinkered by someone who took his Westerly to the boat show on behalf of the Westerly Owners Association and started a "British only" thread claiming him and his Westerly mates reckon Westerly's represent 50% of the top 4 classic's.

Oh the irony ;-) he he

I think I have to take some of the heat here as I did describe his boat as a AWB on a previous thread which may have prompted the classic boat list!

Sorry!

Glad I didn't offer any advice on formatting power point slides. It could have triggered all out war......

 

[PaulRainbow]

VAT issues aside, how expensive is it to ship a boat that size say back to the UK?
I would love to sail it myself, but that amount of time off work and the berthing fees along the way just wouldn't be feasible.

Alternatively, would it be cheaper to hire a delivery crew?
It's frustrating about the EU VAT thing, but my options would open up significantly if I could look further afield - even if just accross the water to France, Germany or the Netherlands etc.

For those distances a delivery crew would be my choice, if i couldn't do it myself.

 

[Bobc]

Agree go for newer. However if you are referring to the Viko 35 - have you actually been on it? - you won't get that demo for anywhere near £100k!. Not a good advert for modern boatbuilding either.

I know this one is sold, but with VAT on top, it comes to £88,500. I'm sure they are perfectly acceptable quality for coastal cruising.