New V Old

[matt1]

Don't think it's me that's blinkered to be honest. I love all boats ;-)

 

[Csfisher]

If this was my budget, and I had a job and a house and all that which restricted me to weekends and holidays, I would be looking at a Jeanneau 3200 or seeing what else I could find that was similar. I was really taken with the 3200 I was moored next to last-but-one winter, but I don't think that would be spacious enough down below to fulfil OP's requirements.

I also really like the Fulmar, but if you want to go places and you've only got a weekend in which to do so, then I think you might appreciate an extra knot.

That's exactly my thought... And one of the key considerations what makes me hesitant to go smaller or older. And I've seen the 3200 come up a few times in my searches and you're right that down below it wouldn't be suitable.

 

[Tranona]

And it is looking increasingly like my best bet is to aim for a smaller boat (30 or 34ft) if I go newer. I think I was under some delusion that somehow in the next year or so prices will drop as you're right the 36-38s just don't seem to be very plentiful in my age and price range.

You are very welcome to come and look at my boat in Poole - not a push to sell even though it will be for sale soon (see my New Boat update thread) but just so that you can see how far away from reality some of the comments about modern boats are. Astonishing the ignorance that underlies some of them!

About 4 years ago there was a similar thread although the poster was thinking of changing from a MOBO. He spent an afternoon with me on the boat then bought a Hunter Legend 38, almost new and is still happily sailing it. As you can see from my other threads, I love old boats. I owned a wooden boat for 40 years and sailed all over the place in it. I worked in and around the boat industry most of my working life, including for a boat builder in the late 70s early 80s (heyday for some here!) I also like DIY, but despite all this experience I would not buy an older cruising boat of the type advocated by some here for the type of use and budget you have. Forget all the stuff about hulls bending, keels falling off, MDF and cheap fabrics etc - remember this all comes mostly from people who have zero experience of actually spending their one hard earned money on a newish boat. I leave you to wonder why they take this stance, but guess having studied psychology at uni helps to give some understanding!

Attached some photos so that you can see all the sharp corners, lack of handholds, and cheap IKEA MDF furniture etc. - although actually all the bulkheads and furniture are ply bonded to the hull and finished with solid wood cappings. The weight of the boat (5.5 tonnes - over a tonne heavier than the much vaunted Fulmar of similar hull length) gives you an idea of how substantial the construction is, not forgetting the Kevlar in the forward sections for impact resistance. I could go on, but you get the picture.

You won't be able to send me a PM until you get permission but if you do want to talk direct I can post a non hackable email address.

 

[dunedin]

The Fulmar was first produced in 1979. It's a modern sailing boat! Really?
If the Fulmar is modern does that mean everything in the last 40 years is also modern?
We all know the answer is no. I also know the Fulmar is an excellent boat but don't argue it's modern.

The point I made was that in its day the Fulmar was very much a “modern” boat, rather than a “traditional” one - and all the better for it. A superb boat for its time. Hence to use a Fulmar as an example for nto buying a “modern” boat is rather ironic.
Boat design development didn’t stop in 1979 and there are good modern boats in later generations that are even better.

 

[Ammonite]

Why keep coming back to the Fulmar versus 2015 Bavaria? The OP has £100k to spend so a more realistic comparison with the Bavaria would be something like a 1990s HR36 or late model Moody 36 with some money set aside for upgrades, which is what I chose. It might be that the OP prefers the Bavaria in which case so be it but at least keep the comparisons realistic. Given my preferences the Moody was the clear winner and if you plan to keep the boat long term (the OP may not want to do this) the Bavaria isn't going to remain maintenance free for ever, although given my friends experience with his late model Cruiser 33 bought when 3 years old it might start sooner than you think but I'm sure this is an isolated example

 

[geem]

The point I made was that in its day the Fulmar was very much a “modern” boat, rather than a “traditional” one - and all the better for it. A superb boat for its time. Hence to use a Fulmar as an example for nto buying a “modern” boat is rather ironic.
Boat design development didn’t stop in 1979 and there are good modern boats in later generations that are even better.

Better for what? Sitting in a marina? Sailing the Atlantic? I don't believe modern is better. Modern from the mass producers usually means better for sitting in a marina. More space and luxury when parked up. Modern hull shapes can be appalling at anchor with slamming sterns that make aft cabins unusable. If you were choosing a 32ft boat to sail single handed across the pond a Fulmar could be in the short list but some of the modern offerings that are supposed to be better wouldn't make it to my short list.
What in a modern production 32ft boat would make you choose it over something like a Fulmar to sail an Atlantic circuit singlehanded?
Would it be stronger than a Fulmar? More comfortable in a gale, more seaworthy?
We choose boats for different reasons and different uses. Some designs are better than others at certain things. If I wanted to hop from marina to marina and not undertake long passages I would likely choose a modern spacious boat.

 

[Graham376]

Why keep coming back to the Fulmar versus 2015 Bavaria? The OP has £100k to spend so a more realistic comparison with the Bavaria would be something like a late model Moody 36 with some money set aside for upgrades, which is what I chose. It might be that the OP prefers the Bavaria in which case so be it but at least keep the comparisons realistic. Given my preferences the Moody was the clear winner and if you plan to keep the boat long term (the OP may not want to do this) the Bavaria isn't going to remain maintenance free for ever, although given my friends experience with his late model Cruiser 33 bought when 3 years old it might start sooner than you think but I'm sure this is an isolated example

We were in same position in 2003, buy new or older and update. We chose to buy older, then 15 years old and have spent roughly £20k since on updates, maintenance etc but, as the boat came pretty bare of equipment, much of that cost was dinghy, outboard, life raft, radar, elec windlass, bimini, gantry, plotter, etc., which would also have been additional cost on a new boat. Never regretted the choice.

 

[Tranona]

Why keep coming back to the Fulmar versus 2015 Bavaria? The OP has £100k to spend so a more realistic comparison with the Bavaria would be something like a late model Moody 36 with some money set aside for upgrades, which is what I chose. It might be that the OP prefers the Bavaria in which case so be it but at least keep the comparisons realistic. Given my preferences the Moody was the clear winner and if you plan to keep the boat long term (the OP may not want to do this) the Bavaria isn't going to remain maintenance free for ever, although given my friends experience with his late model Cruiser 33 bought when 3 years old it might start sooner than you think but I'm sure this is an isolated example

Not "coming back" at all. Just that a certain Fulmar owner keeps banging on about how superior his boat is - despite the fact that he has spent 7 YEARS and thousands of pounds bringing it up to a reasonable condition. Then to justify his choice says experienced owners would choose his type of boat - the implication being that only inexperienced people buy modern boats - what absolute rubbish!. Then you get all the old saws about how flimsy modern boats are, how they don't last, how they are no good as sailing boats - all without any knowledge or experience of having actually owned one and sailed it.

If that counts as being valid, surely my 45 years experience of owning a wooden boat, then 20 years of highly successful Bavaria ownership (which could easily have been a Beneteau or Jeanneau) - both boats bought new with my own money count? The first one did 7 years hard chartering for 25 weeks a year, 3500 engine hours and nothing fell off or broke. Sailed across the Med to Spain and trucked back to UK . Sold easily to a family who promptly took it back to Spain. Equally my current boat is 6 years old and has been trouble free except for a Volvo muffler, Garmin software problem and a failed Lewmar windlass motor - all components fitted to posh boats like HRs!

Sorry about your friends unspecified problems but suggest that is not typical. There is a big world about there and tens of thousands of boats built in the last 30 by the mass producers giving excellent service in all sorts of types of sailing all round the world. And yet in the UK there is myopia centred on "old British is best" - it isn't, because if it ever was there would still be a boat building industry in the UK. Of course many boats like the Moody you mention were good at the time - but only ever built in penny numbers because they only appealed to a small number of people with the resources to actually afford one. That late 36 cost new over 60% more than my Bav 37 cost. One of our club members bought a Bav 35 (essentially the same boat as mine) in 1999, 2 years before me in preference to a Moody for the same financial reasons. Used it for many years for sailing tuition and still has it in excellent condition. You will find many experiences like this - just that people who have that experience don't come on forums moaning about how awful anything modern is. Worth looking at the Bavaria forums and see both how many use their 20 year old boats for cruising and liveaboards and in the help section how few problems they have.

 

[Concerto]

You are very welcome to come and look at my boat in Poole - not a push to sell even though it will be for sale soon (see my New Boat update thread) but just so that you can see how far away from reality some of the comments about modern boats are. Astonishing the ignorance that underlies some of them!

About 4 years ago there was a similar thread although the poster was thinking of changing from a MOBO. He spent an afternoon with me on the boat then bought a Hunter Legend 38, almost new and is still happily sailing it. As you can see from my other threads, I love old boats. I owned a wooden boat for 40 years and sailed all over the place in it. I worked in and around the boat industry most of my working life, including for a boat builder in the late 70s early 80s (heyday for some here!) I also like DIY, but despite all this experience I would not buy an older cruising boat of the type advocated by some here for the type of use and budget you have. Forget all the stuff about hulls bending, keels falling off, MDF and cheap fabrics etc - remember this all comes mostly from people who have zero experience of actually spending their one hard earned money on a newish boat. I leave you to wonder why they take this stance, but guess having studied psychology at uni helps to give some understanding!

Attached some photos so that you can see all the sharp corners, lack of handholds, and cheap IKEA MDF furniture etc. - although actually all the bulkheads and furniture are ply bonded to the hull and finished with solid wood cappings. The weight of the boat (5.5 tonnes - over a tonne heavier than the much vaunted Fulmar of similar hull length) gives you an idea of how substantial the construction is, not forgetting the Kevlar in the forward sections for impact resistance. I could go on, but you get the picture.

You won't be able to send me a PM until you get permission but if you do want to talk direct I can post a non hackable email address.

Tranona, having met you, I feel sure we do not want to go down a long forum conversation. We do diasagree on modern and older boats. No boat is ever perfect. However, I still find it strange after all your positive comments about your Bavaria (which looks very nice), why you would want to change to a smaller older boat. New boat update I think I know the answer, but maybe some of the attributes of an older boat have greater appeal than the improved internal creature comforts of your current boat.

 

[lustyd]

Recently I was talking to someone who used to work there and he said that every year 3 or 4 of them required major work on the keel matrix

Tell us more about what Roberts Aunt's dog's cousin's owner's dad overheard about the chartered racing fleet's maintenance regime. Of course those boats need maintenance, they're some of the most abused vessels around. That says literally nothing about the quality of the build or its strength.

 

[Concerto]

Tell us more about what Roberts Aunt's dog's cousin's owner's dad overheard about the chartered racing fleet's maintenance regime. Of course those boats need maintenance, they're some of the most abused vessels around. That says literally nothing about the quality of the build or its strength.

The cause was repeated hitting of the entrance sill into the lock at Port Solent. It seems they are too impatient to read the depth guage to ensure they have sufficient clearance. Nothing more than repeated operator error causing damage to the structure of the boat - which should be able to withstand this sort of treatment. There is a difference between maintenance and structural work, or perhaps you do not know the difference.

 

[Ammonite]

Not "coming back" at all. Just that a certain Fulmar owner keeps banging on about how superior his boat is - despite the fact that he has spent 7 YEARS and thousands of pounds bringing it up to a reasonable condition. Then to justify his choice says experienced owners would choose his type of boat - the implication being that only inexperienced people buy modern boats - what absolute rubbish!. Then you get all the old saws about how flimsy modern boats are, how they don't last, how they are no good as sailing boats - all without any knowledge or experience of having actually owned one and sailed it.

If that counts as being valid, surely my 45 years experience of owning a wooden boat, then 20 years of highly successful Bavaria ownership (which could easily have been a Beneteau or Jeanneau) - both boats bought new with my own money count? The first one did 7 years hard chartering for 25 weeks a year, 3500 engine hours and nothing fell off or broke. Sailed across the Med to Spain and trucked back to UK . Sold easily to a family who promptly took it back to Spain. Equally my current boat is 6 years old and has been trouble free except for a Volvo muffler, Garmin software problem and a failed Lewmar windlass motor - all components fitted to posh boats like HRs!

Sorry about your friends unspecified problems but suggest that is not typical. There is a big world about there and tens of thousands of boats built in the last 30 by the mass producers giving excellent service in all sorts of types of sailing all round the world. And yet in the UK there is myopia centred on "old British is best" - it isn't, because if it ever was there would still be a boat building industry in the UK. Of course many boats like the Moody you mention were good at the time - but only ever built in penny numbers because they only appealed to a small number of people with the resources to actually afford one. That late 36 cost new over 60% more than my Bav 37 cost. One of our club members bought a Bav 35 (essentially the same boat as mine) in 1999, 2 years before me in preference to a Moody for the same financial reasons. Used it for many years for sailing tuition and still has it in excellent condition. You will find many experiences like this - just that people who have that experience don't come on forums moaning about how awful anything modern is. Worth looking at the Bavaria forums and see both how many use their 20 year old boats for cruising and liveaboards and in the help section how few problems they have.

I agree that British is rarely best, although I think Moody got the 36 pretty well sorted and the use of space is amazing and much better than the HR36 imo, although I do like the look and feel of the HR. I would also take issue that the Moody was "good back in the day" because although things have moved on it still does a lot of things incredibly well and the accommodation for example is light years ahead of the Bav. I also know which one I'd prefer to be in in a blow. Having said there are a lot of good things about more modern boats such as light air performance and I dont think they are poorly designed or about to fall apart, but at the same time they are built to a price and a lot of them simply aren't as nice places to be as the older premium brands, assuming that the upholstery has been replaced, cabin sole replaced or revarnished etc.

 

[doug748]

Frankly the inside of a Westerly Fulmar looks like the Alhambra Palace compared to this:






It looks suspiciously like a camper van and majors on composite boards boxed up and plugged in across the range. This is fine, the plastic faces will wear very well and it's cheap. However screws take badly in it and the lippings are inadequate to take any bashing.

It's not everyone's idea of tres modern chic but will do the job for which it was made.

Apart from that it looks like the Junior Quiz Page from the RYA magazine:

"Hey Dudes!!! you want to cross the English Channel to France on this boat - see how many mistakes can you spot for a boat designed to be used at sea?
Lucky winners will receive a cool Baseball Cap and matching sunglasses"

.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I just put a search in yacht world 50-100 grand 10-11m and organised then by age new to old.
Almost all of those on the first 10 pages would be fine.

The idea that buying a MAB and doing it up (with accompanying powerpoint presentations) would be a better idea is nonsense.

My old girl is 50 years old and I bought her because she's what I wanted. We all have different criteria. I wouldn't dream to compare her to a 2-3 year old Dehler 30, Viko s35, Dufour 360, Oceanis 38, Bav34 .......... etc. etc. etc.

 

[lustyd]

The cause was repeated hitting of the entrance sill into the lock at Port Solent. It seems they are too impatient to read the depth guage to ensure they have sufficient clearance. Nothing more than repeated operator error causing damage to the structure of the boat - which should be able to withstand this sort of treatment. There is a difference between maintenance and structural work, or perhaps you do not know the difference.

That's not a design flaw or a structural issue though. Any boat which repeatedly gets abused will suffer damage. It's not helpful to use such stories to further your prejudices and preferences. It's absolutely fine that you like your old boat, it's not fine to try to coerce the wider community into the same decision by spreading FUD.

1972 Pearson 36...

 

[PaulRainbow]

So you think people with old boats have original cushions? ?
I suspect mine and many others with old boats have newer cushions than yours. We don't sail museum pieces. Continual upgrade is the name of the game. Most of us actually out there sailing probably have newer electronics than the average 10 year old boat.
We also vacuum clean the cockpit, but we also have new Vectran sails, cabin soleboards, hull paint, windlass, winches, running and standing rigging, etc. So who is really in the old boat?

Makes me laugh when the 10 year old boat owner waffles on about how everything on his boat is newer than, say, a 30 year old boat. My boat is 40 years old, but it's a bit like Triggers broom, as are most boats (unless very neglected). I bought it just over 5 years ago, shortly after the previous owners had fitted a new cooker and new roller reefing. They also fitted new batteries, but i've since replaced them again. In my ownership i have replaced:

Genoa
Main sail
Sprayhood
Sail cover (new lazy jacks too)
Standing rigging
Running rigging
Lines led to cockpit with new deck gear
Updated winches (6 self tailers)
Anchor
Batteries
Battery charger
Most of the wiring
All upholstery
Pocket sprung mattress in aft cabin
Curtains and cushions
All new electronics
Bilge pump
Water pump
Shower pump
Full new hot water system
Etc, etc, etc

Anyone with a 10 year old boat will have either replaced some of that, will be replacing some soon, or the boat is getting a little tired. My 40 year old Westerly isn't for everyone, any more than the new Bav/Ben/Jen is, but it never lets me down, everything is in good order and it didn't cost anywhere near 100K

 

[lustyd]

That list is probably into the £40-£50k range though Paul, excluding the boat itself. The main difference is when you need to pay the money and whether you have a choice about replacements. With a new boat you're required to pay for it all in one go or commit to it with a loan. Second hand of any age means you have a lower buy in and can then spread the costs as and when. I agree there's no boat that doesn't need work or replacement bits, and I've spent more on running rigging for the new boat than I sold the old boat for. I'm hoping to go for a new one next time simply to avoid projects, but that's mostly laziness

 

[PaulRainbow]

Seems to me like Concerto and Tranona are as "bad" as one another.

 

[PaulRainbow]

That list is probably into the £40-£50k range though Paul, excluding the boat itself. The main difference is when you need to pay the money and whether you have a choice about replacements. With a new boat you're required to pay for it all in one go or commit to it with a loan. Second hand of any age means you have a lower buy in and can then spread the costs as and when. I agree there's no boat that doesn't need work or replacement bits, and I've spent more on running rigging for the new boat than I sold the old boat for. I'm hoping to go for a new one next time simply to avoid projects, but that's mostly laziness

Never actually sat down and added it up, but maybe £40K.

But, if i bought a 10 year old boat, how many of those things would need to be done anyway ? Rigging and sails would be tired, electronics a bit dated, upholstery a bit saggy?

As i said, not for everyone (what boat is), but the argument that an older boat is all old is nonsense. Any boat will start the cycling of maintenance and repairs/updates from day one, once it's a few years old (i reckon about 10) you start spending. After a while we're all in the same boat, periodically fixing, replacing and updating stuff, if not we'd be sailing in a wreck.

 

[lustyd]

I completely agree. There are some things that are inherently harder on older designs such as modern plumbing and adding wiring conduits, but aside from that everything is ultimately a consumable. That first 5-10 years where most things are new at the same time must be nice though, and given that many new boats will sell for roughly what was originally paid it seems a good value proposition for those with the money.