New V Old

[Tranona]

I know this one is sold, but with VAT on top, it comes to £88,500. I'm sure they are perfectly acceptable quality for coastal cruising.

The one at Southampton was £136k! Having crawled all over it, not sure that (or even at half the price) would be a good investment. The allocation of space is poor with a huge cockpit and cramped, sparse cabin fitted out such that IKEA looks like high quality. The only thing that struck me as noteworthy was the well designed spray hood.

 

[Tranona]

VAT issues aside, how expensive is it to ship a boat that size say back to the UK?
I would love to sail it myself, but that amount of time off work and the berthing fees along the way just wouldn't be feasible.

Alternatively, would it be cheaper to hire a delivery crew?
It's frustrating about the EU VAT thing, but my options would open up significantly if I could look further afield - even if just accross the water to France, Germany or the Netherlands etc.

No. That is an ex charter boat, and not one of Bavaria's better efforts - the revamped 37 that succeeded it was far superior.

Simply not worth buying in the eastern Med for use in the UK . As you can see once you add VAT it comes out much the same as a UK boat. I have been through this. My first Bav I bought new for charter use in Greece. Did 7 seasons chartering, 3 season's holiday/liveaboard before sailing to Spain with a crew and trucking back to Poole. That cost, with air fares for crew, pay for skipper, marina fees, food, fuel, truck and handling either end, just short of £9k in 2010. Sailing all the way, which was the original intention but for various reasons turned out impractical with a paid skipper would have been between £6-7k and minimum 4 weeks, more likely 5. Sold it 4 years later in the UK for about 10% less than similar private boats went for and it went straight back to Spain!

It only makes sense to buy there if you intend to keep the boat out there, or at least out of UK. In fact Brexit has made it even more attractive as you won't have to pay VAT but still keep it in the EU for notionally 18 months under Temporary import rules. Fly in the ointment for a UK citizen is the Schengen rules for visitors. Americans and antipodeans have being buying boats this way for years, many of them using it as a stepping off for sailing the boat home.

You are right looking just across the channel makes more sense from a financial point of view because prices, even VAT paid are currently lower than in the UK and transport costs lower. There are Bav 33s like mine for sale in Germany that with UK VAT are similar to what they are fetching here. However, this is a blip and as economists who study markets will tell you prices tend towards equilibrium if there is free trade. There has not been a real cross border market for the last 2 years because of Covid and Brexit and I expect that imbalance will slowly disappear as things settle down and people start moving around - plus of course overcoming the Brexit effect. Although people get worked up about having to pay VAT on imports from the EU, it really does not matter - the only thing that is important financially is the cost of getting the boat you want in the place you want to use it.

Worth also noting that buying boats is a hassle and can be costly driving all over the country looking at boats, making offers that are not accepted or having to withdraw after survey, chasing elusive paperwork and so on. Multiply that by 2 o3 if buying outside the UK!

 

[Csfisher]

Well it seems the OP has reached the point (after Mr Scala has eaten all his mobo popcorn) of having a choice between a Moody 36 with a stern cabin ,a number of which have benn for sale here at Haslar if of interest if sure the sell quite quickly ,and the newer Bav or say Hanse with shorter length . If pale blond interiors etc appeal then many pluses to the newer 33 /34 length but likewise with the 36. ImHO the moody sails more slowly but reefs later and tends to have the in mast reefing ,has a small cockpit and will be needing more spent day one and might come with aging teak decks(avoid these) or the light quicker new boat with new gear (same kit as fitted to our HR friends) but perhaps a smaller engine ,more bounce if motoring into chop,no bowthruster and might have smaller water and fuel tanks?. Alternative step back further in time maybe and buy a HR 34 say and acknowledge the issues in terms of maintenance but take pleasure in the carpet and heavy woodwork . All I can suggest is get out there and maybe by using an owners forum gain insight but as we have seen such fora can attract apostles if not zealots. You don’t say your intended home port but enquiry there might reveal some off markets opportunity and comparisons of the choices. Many Moody owners stay with the brand but so do other makes so you see moody 36 owners trading up to moody41ac (even though these share many parts found on Hanse) but are more modern in style. As if you enjoy the ownership experience you might be tempted to move on maybe don’t over invest in your day one boat though but learn what works and what you lust for in your year 5 replacement ?

Yup you pretty much summed it up!

If I get lucky, then I may snag myself a HR36. They seem to be the best of all my worlds; quality, sailing performance, 'prestige' and accommodation and felxibility to do longer ocean passages.
I would seriously consider a Moody; although having never sailed one I'd be keen to do so especially on a light wind day as while I love the look of the accommodation, I'm not sure it'll provide me with a suitably satisfying sailing experience for what I'll mostly be sailing in (light airs in the Solent).

More than likely, if I'm not lucky I think I'll end up with a new(er) Bav. I really like the look of the Bav 36 2011 onward model.
Again if I get lucky, maybe I can get a newer, say 2018 or so Bav in the 33-34 range. I do think though the Bavs seem to be the better choice compared to Jen and Ben in my opinion but I'll keep my mind open in that regard.

I seriously was considering looking at the Oceanis 30.1 but just from the pictures I can see there is not enough storage; even for shorter passages. Perhaps worth looking at one sometime in person just to confirm, but I also worry that it might not quite handle all the seas I might decide to throw at it.

Thank you all for your help; it has been insightful. My mind hasn't really been made up, or even significantly changed from when I posted the question - but you have at least confirmed some thoughts I had and made me question some of my motives and requirements which is exactly what I needed!

 

[Csfisher]

No. That is an ex charter boat, and not one of Bavaria's better efforts - the revamped 37 that succeeded it was far superior.

Simply not worth buying in the eastern Med for use in the UK . As you can see once you add VAT it comes out much the same as a UK boat. I have been through this. My first Bav I bought new for charter use in Greece. Did 7 seasons chartering, 3 season's holiday/liveaboard before sailing to Spain with a crew and trucking back to Poole. That cost, with air fares for crew, pay for skipper, marina fees, food, fuel, truck and handling either end, just short of £9k in 2010. Sailing all the way, which was the original intention but for various reasons turned out impractical with a paid skipper would have been between £6-7k and minimum 4 weeks, more likely 5. Sold it 4 years later in the UK for about 10% less than similar private boats went for and it went straight back to Spain!

It only makes sense to buy there if you intend to keep the boat out there, or at least out of UK. In fact Brexit has made it even more attractive as you won't have to pay VAT but still keep it in the EU for notionally 18 months under Temporary import rules. Fly in the ointment for a UK citizen is the Schengen rules for visitors. Americans and antipodeans have being buying boats this way for years, many of them using it as a stepping off for sailing the boat home.

You are right looking just across the channel makes more sense from a financial point of view because prices, even VAT paid are currently lower than in the UK and transport costs lower. There are Bav 33s like mine for sale in Germany that with UK VAT are similar to what they are fetching here. However, this is a blip and as economists who study markets will tell you prices tend towards equilibrium if there is free trade. There has not been a real cross border market for the last 2 years because of Covid and Brexit and I expect that imbalance will slowly disappear as things settle down and people start moving around - plus of course overcoming the Brexit effect. Although people get worked up about having to pay VAT on imports from the EU, it really does not matter - the only thing that is important financially is the cost of getting the boat you want in the place you want to use it.

Worth also noting that buying boats is a hassle and can be costly driving all over the country looking at boats, making offers that are not accepted or having to withdraw after survey, chasing elusive paperwork and so on. Multiply that by 2 o3 if buying outside the UK!

That's pretty much what I thought; I'm really hoping that the benefit of living in the Solent will mean I won't have to chase around too much looking for a boat since most are generally here on my doorstep. Perhaps the odd drive over to the west country which is no bad thing!

I will definitely include the European countries in my search though as there just don't seem to be many boats for sale in the UK right now. Again; hopefully this does improve over the next year or so!

 

[SteveA]

Sad that the Maxi's haven't been mentioned here or on the 'classic' thread - I feel like 'billy no mates'

 

[Csfisher]

J

Sad that the Maxi's haven't been mentioned here or on the 'classic' thread - I feel like 'billy no mates'

Just looked at an ad for a Maxi 1100; slightly more traditional looking but still a lot of room below it would seem. From what I've just read on one YM article, they're fast too?

How do you find yours?

 

[Ammonite]

J


Just looked at an ad for a Maxi 1100; slightly more traditional looking but still a lot of room below it would seem. From what I've just read on one YM article, they're fast too?

How do you find yours?

This was the other boat I was considering but like the HR36 was more than I wanted to pay! Lovely looking boat.

Incidentally take the SA/D figures for the M36 on sites like sailboatdata with a massive pinch of salt as the sail area differs significantly from other sources and it was designed to be quicker than the M35 it replaced. Don't get me wrong it is no light winds flyer but in practice I think it will be very similar to the HR36 which is what the NHC list also suggests

 

[whaup]

Yup you pretty much summed it up!

If I get lucky, then I may snag myself a HR36. They seem to be the best of all my worlds; quality, sailing performance, 'prestige' and accommodation and felxibility to do longer ocean passages.
...

I seriously was considering looking at the Oceanis 30.1 ....

Transworld had three HR36s listed during the boat show- a mk1 (£75K) and two mk2s (£98K & £115K). The two cheaper ones are still available, I think.
We went aboard the Beneteau at the boat show: it seemed quite nice though there was quite a lot of volume to rattle around in during bumpy weather.
They appear to be very different boats- the Beneteau all about form stability, the HR with a substantial keel doing the work- I came away with the impression that passage making would be comfortable in the HR but the Beneteau might be more exciting... needing to be actively sailed and more susceptible to wave motion, the effects of gusts etc. The HR sails well but maybe doesn't need to be sailed as much.
The price might be comparable, the interior volume might be similar but the experience of owning and sailing them seemed very different.

So, if you have a reasonable idea what you want from your boat, I think the choice between those two becomes reasonably clear.
We were unimpressed by the Jenneau (boat) and the Bavaria (dealer, didn't really get a chance to judge the boat). Concluded the J/boats were not really what we were after and quite liked the Dehlers, though there didn't seem to be a model that quite matched what we wanted.
Were impressed by Concerto but, again, we couldn't see a good fit for our idiosyncratic whims amongst the Westerley offerings.
Maybe a Moody would work for us but in the current market it could be a frustrating search.

I think it helps a LOT of you know what you want from the boat... if you don't, then it's hard to differentiate between options. We knew what we didn't want but had little clue what we did before we poked around a few boats and talked to people that understood what they offered.

Bit of a ramble... sorry.

W.

 

[Concerto]

Transworld had three HR36s listed during the boat show- a mk1 (£75K) and two mk2s (£98K & £115K). The two cheaper ones are still available, I think.
We went aboard the Beneteau at the boat show: it seemed quite nice though there was quite a lot of volume to rattle around in during bumpy weather.
They appear to be very different boats- the Beneteau all about form stability, the HR with a substantial keel doing the work- I came away with the impression that passage making would be comfortable in the HR but the Beneteau might be more exciting... needing to be actively sailed and more susceptible to wave motion, the effects of gusts etc. The HR sails well but maybe doesn't need to be sailed as much.
The price might be comparable, the interior volume might be similar but the experience of owning and sailing them seemed very different.

So, if you have a reasonable idea what you want from your boat, I think the choice between those two becomes reasonably clear.
We were unimpressed by the Jenneau (boat) and the Bavaria (dealer, didn't really get a chance to judge the boat). Concluded the J/boats were not really what we were after and quite liked the Dehlers, though there didn't seem to be a model that quite matched what we wanted.
Were impressed by Concerto but, again, we couldn't see a good fit for our idiosyncratic whims amongst the Westerley offerings.
Maybe a Moody would work for us but in the current market it could be a frustrating search.

I think it helps a LOT of you know what you want from the boat... if you don't, then it's hard to differentiate between options. We knew what we didn't want but had little clue what we did before we poked around a few boats and talked to people that understood what they offered.

Bit of a ramble... sorry.

W.

Thank you for those kind words. Earlier in the thread I linked to a Westerly Typhoon, worth checking out if you want a fast well mannered cruising boat.

Your summary between the HR36 and Beneteau is very fair. They are designed for differnt types of sailing in different time periods. Your comment in finding in boats what the OP does not like is a very valid suggestion. This will certainly help narrow his mindframe on what to look for.

 

[Tranona]

Yup you pretty much summed it up!

More than likely, if I'm not lucky I think I'll end up with a new(er) Bav. I really like the look of the Bav 36 2011 onward model.
Again if I get lucky, maybe I can get a newer, say 2018 or so Bav in the 33-34 range. I do think though the Bavs seem to be the better choice compared to Jen and Ben in my opinion but I'll keep my mind open in that regard.

Having followed Bavarias closely over the last 20 odd year there are maybe 4 models in your size range that stand out as hitting that sweet spot since 2006 (before that there were several). The 34 of 2007/10, 37 of 2006 - 2009 and the 33/4 and 37 from 2014 to present. My favorite of the lot is the current 37, and if we had still been able to keep a boat in Greece, that would have been my choice.

When choosing boats you go backwards and forwards trying to weigh up the pros and cons of each - some even construct spreadsheets, but in the end you tend to know the boat for you as soon as you step on it. You internalise all the conflicting features and compromises and get to know what you can live with. This has been my experience with my last 3 purchases, each made with different requirements and quite different boats. Most strong is the latest one where I bought it on Monday after just 3 hours inspection. Helped that I was already fixed on the design - just that being semi custom built they are all different (and after 40 odd years very variable in condition). Starting from a short list of 6 this one shouted "buy me". I have the same experience with cars and as I keep them between 10-15 years, usually from new or nearly new it can take a while to focus on what is important before buying- so far no real mistakes.

 

[Stemar]

there was quite a lot of volume to rattle around in during bumpy weather.

This is an issue with most modern boats, and why I'd go for an older HR or similar for proper blue water sailing. That space is great in the marina, but a friend hurt himself quite badly in his 39ft Dufour when it fell off a wave and threw him at the chart table, ribs first. If he'd been solo, he'd have been in trouble.

 

[whaup]

...Your comment in finding in boats what the OP does not like is a very valid suggestion. This will certainly help narrow his mindframe on what to look for.

As an example, I really like the look of the 90s Dehlers about this (~35') size but all of the ones I looked at seemed to have the helm seperated from the rest of the boat by the pedestal & traveller... 20 years ago this wouldn't have been an issue; just hop over... but nowadays and looking forward: doesn't seem a wise choice.