New V Old

Buck Turgidson said:
The idea that buying a MAB and doing it up (with accompanying powerpoint presentations) would be a better idea is nonsense.
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Many old boats are bought because they have what a lot of new ones don't. We were doing longish trips at the time with many overnights. To us, secure sea berths and galley were considerations as was greater and deeper wetted area to avoid slamming and, low aspect (shallow) keel and skegged rudder. Fast performance not a consideration. I dislike boats with linear galleys and no sea berths and prefer a quiet (although slower) ride without slamming.

That's our choice and I never belittle anyone else's, everyone is entitled to different choices for their type of sailing.
 
It might be your choice, but you did include a lot of misconceptions about new boats in there so it doesn't appear that your choice is based on sound foundations. As you say though, you're free to base your choice on whatever you like, real or imaginary.
 
It’s often said that a picture paints a thousand words….so I’ve just watched the video of a Fulmar and looked at Tranona’s pictures of his Bav.

For boats of a similar LOA, I was surprised at just how small the Westerly cockpit was. Down below, it looked dreary and claustrophobic. The Bav by comparison looked roomy, bright and airy, generally higher quality than the “home made” appearance of the Westerly.

As to the comment about 3-4 per year of a certain fleet of heavily used boats needing extensive keel matrix work, I’d simply say that I don’t believe it. Rather than hearsay, why doesn’t the person who allegedly used to work there make a first hand comment?

The fleet does experience a fair amount of GRP repair work over the course of a season but that’s generally due “racing incidents”.
 
Concerto said:
I do repeat there is nothing better than going out looking at boats and seeing what you like. If you are wanting a nice older boat that performs well and is well within your budget I would suggest looking at this boat which is local to you. I would love to own one. Westerly Typhoon
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With the money you spent on Concerto you could have bought one Roger :)
 
Csfisher said:
the 11-12m would have been my ideal; but with how some of these newer boats are laid out I really am seriously considering now some of the smaller boats. I think I am just put off because most my sailing experience is on 40ft boats of various eras, plus OLD small boats (Contessa 32 etc). I haven't actually sailed a new 30-34ft boat.

Crew requirements are mostly the fact that my partner doesn't like the darker gloomier cabins. She rather likes the look of new boats, but doesn't like the idea of them potentially be as safe. I value sailing performance most, she values comfort down below the most. I do value comfort down below to an extent also though.

I prefer two cabin layouts with a larger locker instead. I like the idea of a large aft cabin, but equally I'd be just as happy in a GOOD FWD cabin - I've seen some really awful ones with almost no storage or space to dress or move or that aren't very nice for two people sharing.

One head is fine. Two I feel would be unnecessary and a waste of space for us; and would be more to go wrong.

Large fridge isn't essential, but at least a little bit of countertop space is nice; I was surprised to see a front loading fridge on the new Bav 38, but then realised actually it would be nice to not have to clear the counter to open the fridge provided everything doesn't fall out and the door stays closed.

Professionally I no longer use paper charts, and I have fully embraced technology so am happy with the modern smaller folding chart tables with just a thin slot to store a backup portfolio.

My planned berth is all state with a pontoon (depending on draft, entrance dredged to 1.5m and a mean low water spring of 0.7 meaning a 2m draft should be fine).

Lifting and bilge keels are an absolute no for me. I don't intend to take the bottom (intentionally) and therefore wouldn't benefit from the performance trade off.
INTERESTLY however, I did sail an Ovni for a while with a lifting keel and was very pleasantly surprised with how well it sailed - although the flat bottom made it somewhat uncomfortable in a chop despite it's size and weight.

That's a good tip on the brokers, thanks - I'll reach out to them when I'm closer to buying to see what they have coming to market!

When you say new kit; are you referring to the tools, warps and fenders, lifejackets, tools etc. that would generally come with an older boat? If so yes those do add up in cost rather quickly! Or are you referring to the deck hardware and upgrades that are 'options' on a newer boat?
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One of these seems to tick most (or all) of your boxes and is in budget (VAT would need to be paid on this particular one). One berthed behind me was recently for sale for £80K, very nice condition, i think i t was a 2003.

2012 Bavaria 36 Cruiser Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld
 
Buck Turgidson said:
Whilst looking at the previously mentioned search results I found the solution.
Mystery 35

Looks old but is new(ish).
Anyone sailed one?
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Not sailed but went on one at the boatshow a few years back. Thought it was the boat for me ahead of the show, although I wasn't in a position to buy at that point, but was really disappointed by the quality of the interior fit out. Nasty plastic looking cladding etc. Just felt really cheap imo. Another man's light and airy no doubt. Apparently they sail very well.
 
Skylark said:
It’s often said that a picture paints a thousand words….so I’ve just watched the video of a Fulmar and looked at Tranona’s pictures of his Bav.

For boats of a similar LOA, I was surprised at just how small the Westerly cockpit was. Down below, it looked dreary and claustrophobic. The Bav by comparison looked roomy, bright and airy, generally higher quality than the “home made” appearance of the Westerly.

As to the comment about 3-4 per year of a certain fleet of heavily used boats needing extensive keel matrix work, I’d simply say that I don’t believe it. Rather than hearsay, why doesn’t the person who allegedly used to work there make a first hand comment?

The fleet does experience a fair amount of GRP repair work over the course of a season but that’s generally due “racing incidents”.
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Sorry Skylark but there are a few errors in your comments. The LOA of a 2015 Bav 33 is 9.99m compared to 9.7m of the Fulmar. The Bav beam is 3.42m compared to 3.33m. So volume wise the Bav will be much larger due to being longer, has an almost stem bow, greater beam a, fuller transom, and higher freeboard, so not a anything directly comparable.

Other differences includes the standard draft is 1.95m compared to 1.5m, displacement is 5,200Kg compared to 4,490Kg, the keel is 1,300Kg compared to 1914Kg. As to the weights, the method of calculating displacement is probably more accurate today than 40 years ago, so I expect the Fulmar to be possibly slightly heavier than quoted. Even so they cannot be called a close resemblence in size.
2015 Bavaria CRUISER 33 @ Top Speed
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/4/4b/Fulmar_brochure_1980_2.PDF

As to your comment about dreary and claustrophobic, again that is a matter of opinion. Many of the visitors at the boat show comment it was nice to see real wood and found it very relaxing to be in. In another thread I commented that on opening day a group of 4 young men in their early 20's came onboard near to closing time. They sail out of Poole and said they found the IKEA style of the modern boats at the show not to their liking and loved being on a "traditional" yacht finished in real wood and felt very stable in the water. Obviously they were not the only people to make comments like this, but they should be in the target audience for the modern offerings. Just goes to show you idea of a yacht does not appeal to all age groups as you think.

As to your "home made" comment, well again it just shows your ignornce. Westerly woodwork was hand made in their own workshops by skilled craftsment, in fact the more I look closely at some of they workmanship, the more I am impressed. By comparison using an internal keel matrix to fit bulkheads and furniture is guaranteed to be extremely accurate and modern interiors are prepared using CNC machines - something that was not available 40 years ago. I certainly would say Westerly did a good job at that time, possibly not quite as good as HR or Swan, but they were pitched to be at a lower priced market. Even today most Westerlys hold their value better than many of the continental built boats of a similar size and age.

Strangely the person who commented about Sunsail has worked at Port Solent, in the past he worked crewing on superyachts, recently has been racing J99's and J109's in the Solent. 2 years ago he decided to buy his first boat, his choice was an old Buchannan wooden yacht that was heading to be cut up. He has worked alongside some excellent shiprights to save this classic yacht, cost has been a lower than what she is worth today. He does not participate in yachting forums, so I doubt if he would confirm the comments he made, but I certainly believed him when he gave me the information as he had nothing to gain by telling me. If you carefully read all of my posts in this thread you will see I try to give straight and accurate information - usually backed up with links or suggestions on where to check the comments out.

In my first post in this thread I tried to give information that differed from the "I've got a newish boat and have not had any problems brigade". If you think that Csfisher, the OP, should not have been told of these problems, then what is the point of this forum.

Edit, I forgot the links to where the specifications came from.
 
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PaulRainbow said:
With the money you spent on Concerto you could have bought one Roger :)
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Yes, but it would not be in such good condition as Concerto is. Besides I am happy with my Fulmar as it suited my requirements. As I have mentioned in other threads, the cost does not worry me. I have a boat with lots of new equipment to my own specification and hopefully now, minimal maintenance for the next 10 years. :) :) :)
 
Skylark said:
It’s often said that a picture paints a thousand words….so I’ve just watched the video of a Fulmar and looked at Tranona’s pictures of his Bav.

For boats of a similar LOA, I was surprised at just how small the Westerly cockpit was. Down below, it looked dreary and claustrophobic. The Bav by comparison looked roomy, bright and airy, generally higher quality than the “home made” appearance of the Westerly.

As to the comment about 3-4 per year of a certain fleet of heavily used boats needing extensive keel matrix work, I’d simply say that I don’t believe it. Rather than hearsay, why doesn’t the person who allegedly used to work there make a first hand comment?

The fleet does experience a fair amount of GRP repair work over the course of a season but that’s generally due “racing incidents”.
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There you go. For you, interior is everything. Interiors now sell boats. It doesn't matter how they sail.
Fulmars were used in North Wales as sailing school boats. They would go out in any weather sailing around Anglesey. A demanding place to sail. It's not the Solent They cope admirably.
The cockpit to somebody else would be seaman like and perfect on such a boat.
The Westerly Fulmar doesn't have a cheap home made interior but it is of a time. Good quality teak faced ply. It's dark by modern standards but it is durable.
Horses for courses.
 
Ammonite said:
Not sailed but went on one at the boatshow a few years back. Thought it was the boat for me ahead of the show, although I wasn't in a position to buy at that point, but was really disappointed by the quality of the interior fit out. Nasty plastic looking cladding etc. Just felt really cheap imo. Another man's light and airy no doubt. Apparently they sail very well.
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I also considered the Mystery 35 when I was buying. Being designed by Stephen Jones means it is a nice hull design and will sail fast. However I disliked how the tiller swept almost the whole cockpit, the access down below was steep and made awkward by a low sprayhood, and the interior finish with a painted tongue and groove finish did not appeal.
 
lustyd said:
It might be your choice, but you did include a lot of misconceptions about new boats in there so it doesn't appear that your choice is based on sound foundations. As you say though, you're free to base your choice on whatever you like, real or imaginary.
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I sailed on a Jan and a Bav so didn't just look. Cost didn't sway me, could have bought new boat but most seemed designed for the Med charter market.
 
geem said:
The cockpit to somebody else would be seaman like and perfect on such a boat.
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I think, to be fair, cockpits and accomodation have changed to reflect the time a yacht spends entertaining and accomodating compared to sailing. Even the most avid sailors will likely spend more time stopped than sailing, and a cockpit designed for gin and dinner can also be made to be seamanlike for sailing. While it's a lovely notion that we all spend every minute on our boats in the middle of the atlantic in oilies getting drenched in a F9 the reality just isn't that for people with jobs and families.
 
Lots of criticism (in both directions) levelled at interiors in particular, but In my experience modern interiors / sailing ability aren’t mutually exclusive. My (new) 2018 boat is significantly better mannered than my (new) 2005 boat was (which being a David Thomas design was pretty fantastic!). Don’t ask me to explain how J&V can design something with such broad stern sections that can be so light on the helm, superbly balanced and virtually impossible to make round up - it defies anything I understand about physics. But it’s fair to say I have been blown away with the advances in such a short period of time between (what for me was boat 3 & 4) And when I think back to sailing boats in (& of) the 70’s it’s like night and day.

Although the aesthetics haven’t grown on me yet, I would like to see how these new French yachts with scow like bows and fwd chines handle. Would love to hear of anyone with experience of them on here
 
Ammonite said:
Here's one for sale in the UK
2011 Bavaria 36 Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld
Its a lot of boat for the money but to me it still looks like an economy boat in terms of the accommodation.
It won't be to everyone's taste but spend the same money on a well kept Moody 36 and this is what you get (this one is no longer for sale and it's rare to find one with teak decks)
Boat Details - John Rodriguez Yachts
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Even on photos you can see the better quality of the Moody and lots of storage.
A friend has a Bav 46 in the Caribbean. He came on our Trintella 44 and was impressed by the acres of solid teak, tons of storage and quality feel. He said his Bav felt like a caravan by comparison. These are boats built very differently for different markets. We don't want lots of bunks. We don't need to accommodate 8 people in four cabins. We do have immense storage and a walk in engine room with bench and vise and diesel generator. Our boat is not designed for Med sailing but it makes a great liveaboard and ocean sailor
 
Ammonite said:
Here's one for sale in the UK
2011 Bavaria 36 Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld
Its a lot of boat for the money but to me it still looks like an economy boat in terms of the accommodation.
It won't be to everyone's taste but spend the same money on a well kept Moody 36 and this is what you get (this one is no longer for sale and it's rare to find one with teak decks)
Boat Details - John Rodriguez Yachts
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Also sold Moody 38 CC / 38CC 7267304 – Burton Waters Boat Sales

Only £5K more than the 36CC. I looked at it when it was for sale, a lovely boat, but a disappointing amount of storage, for me.
 
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