New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Peio64]

It would appear that the CA has rolled over and accepted this tax .
Why not a letter to Ministry showing that the CA are advising its members to leave Greece.similar to what the Marina owners have sent.

I am not a member and the CA acceptance of this tax, to me will keep it that way.
Not knocking you Jim.b but it looks like a cosy London club.

Yes. I feel exactly the same.
I was almost ready to become a new member of this association but I am rather surprised by this behaviour which appears to me as a "sheep" one, waiting for a reasonable shearing.

We are far from the general outcry of year 2000 after the former Greek attempt to enforce this kind of tax.

Peio

 

[maby]

My final word on this.

I'm sure that nobody here in the UK has any objection to the Greeks taxing their own population on what they see as "Conspicuous Wealth" but does that entitle them to do the same to their "Visitors" and "Customers"?

....

Of course it does - do we allow visitors to this country to not pay VAT or fuel duty? OK, you can claim back the VAT on items you export from this country, but everything you consume here is taxed just the same as it would be for a UK national. It may seem like a short-sighted tax, it may seem absolutely stupid, but the only solution is to go somewhere else. Fortunately for me, Greece is one of the last places in europe I would want to go.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Of course it does - do we allow visitors to this country to not pay VAT or fuel duty? OK, you can claim back the VAT on items you export from this country, but everything you consume here is taxed just the same as it would be for a UK national. It may seem like a short-sighted tax, it may seem absolutely stupid, but the only solution is to go somewhere else. Fortunately for me, Greece is one of the last places in europe I would want to go.

VAT is a consumer tax and NOT an asset tax. What would you say if they asked you to pay a tax on your car if you were driving it in Greece?

 

[nimbusgb]

VAT is a consumer tax and NOT an asset tax. What would you say if they asked you to pay a tax on your car if you were driving it in Greece?

Well they ask for it in Switzerland and Austria so why not in Greece?

 

[maby]

Well they ask for it in Switzerland and Austria so why not in Greece?

exactly - within reason governments can levy any taxes they want provided they are applied equitably. If the Greek government does not make visitors pay the charges, I could imagine Greeks lodging a case with Brussels that they were being treated unfairly. As far as car ownership is concerned, most countries will allow you to pass through without paying but if you stay there for a prolonged period, they expect you to register the vehicle and pay the same taxes as a local would.

You can easily avoid Greek taxes - leave Greece!

 

[Peio64]

Well they ask for it in Switzerland and Austria so why not in Greece?

In Switzerland, Austria (and other European countries), this "vignette" allows you to drive in particular roads which are in other countries submitted to toll.

In other words, this "vignette" is not a tax sensu stricto but rather some kind of subscription package you pay in exchange of a service. The Greek tax will be in exchange of nothing that Greek State would have to pay for (construction or maintenance).

Peio

 

[nimbusgb]

In Switzerland, Austria (and other European countries), this "vignette" allows you to drive in particular roads which are in other countries submitted to toll.

In other words, this "vignette" is not a tax sensu stricto but rather some kind of subscription package you pay in exchange of a service. The Greek tax will be in exchange of nothing that Greek State would have to pay for (construction or maintenance).

Peio

Let's not split hairs. If I drive from here to Venice via either Switzerland or Austria I have to ( or rather I am supposed to ) buy a vignette. If I keep my car in a garage in Zurich all year ... no vignette.

If I sail from Turkey to Italy via Greek waters then ..........

 

[BrianH]

Well they ask for it in Switzerland and Austria so why not in Greece?

In Switzerland, Austria (and other European countries), this "vignette" allows you to drive in particular roads which are in other countries submitted to toll.

Aha, that was nimbusgb's meaning, the Autobahn vignette. It didn't occur to me as I thought most know that the vignette was the same as a road toll payment and nothing to do with a car tax. Which, incidentally, is far cheaper in either country than what I have to pay in Italy getting to my boat, with all the tedious stops to pay. And to add to the analogy, avoid the Autobahn or autostrada by keeping to Landstrasse and Strada Provinciale and there will be no need for vignettes or tolls.

 

[maby]

Aha, that was nimbusgb's meaning, the Autobahn vignette. It didn't occur to me as I thought most know that the vignette was the same as a road toll payment and nothing to do with a car tax. Which, incidentally, is far cheaper in either country than what I have to pay in Italy getting to my boat, with all the tedious stops to pay. And to add to the analogy, avoid the Autobahn or autostrada by keeping to Landstrasse and Strada Provinciale and there will be no need for vignettes or tolls.

There are plenty of parallels - my son has Polish neighbours who are renting a house - they are expected to pay Council Tax. These Greek charges may be unpopular, they may be badly planned and implemented, but they seem legitimate to me - sorry!

 

[Chris_Robb]

There are plenty of parallels - my son has Polish neighbours who are renting a house - they are expected to pay Council Tax. These Greek charges may be unpopular, they may be badly planned and implemented, but they seem legitimate to me - sorry!

Of course they pay council tax - they use dustbins, drive on the local roads, probably send their kids to local school. Utterly different from the tax being levied, whih is not in return for services. We pay that separately in port dues.

This tax is a disgrace. As I am in the water already and I don't go out till May - I will be stuffed anyway. But I strongly object to paying an unreasonably high rate of tax. If it had been set lower - say €400 I might just have not complained - but the shambolic way it has been dealt with so far is disgraceful.

 

[maby]

Of course they pay council tax - they use dustbins, drive on the local roads, probably send their kids to local school. Utterly different from the tax being levied, whih is not in return for services. We pay that separately in port dues.

This tax is a disgrace. As I am in the water already and I don't go out till May - I will be stuffed anyway. But I strongly object to paying an unreasonably high rate of tax. If it had been set lower - say €400 I might just have not complained - but the shambolic way it has been dealt with so far is disgraceful.

I will certainly agree that they should have given more notice so that owners could make the decision to leave and avoid having to pay.

 

[jimbaerselman]

VAT is a consumer tax and NOT an asset tax. What would you say if they asked you to pay a tax on your car if you were driving it in Greece?

The legality of what's going on . . .

The Greek stance is that this is a service tax, not an asset tax. It may, or may not, be classed as a circulation tax. Boats are a "means of transport" in EU speak.

There is an argument in EU law that "means of transport" from other EU countries should not be made to pay local circulation taxes until 180 days after arrival, as long as home country payments of circulation taxes are paid up. After 180 days (or when home country tax expires) the EU then allows that means of transport must be imported and meet all local registration requirements (except they don't actually have to re-register if they are going to be exported again). Occasional checks on motor homes and cars leaving Greece have shown over-stays, and given rise to fines of one year's local circulation tax - plus the same amount again as a fine. Boats spending more than 180 days in Spanish waters have had similar (heavier) fines amounting to 20% of the boat's value. Of course, lots break the rules and aren't caught. But the risk lives on

Greece has been very lenient about these rules as far as boats are concerned. Visiting EU boats, so far, have been allowed to stay as long as they wished without having to be "imported" with the attached rigmaroles and re-equipment.

Since many of these visitor boats do not pay circulation taxes in their own countries (Uk in particular!) there is an argument that, on arrival in Greece, with home circulation taxes not paid, they can be immediately charged local fees on arrival, rather than after 180 days grace. So arguing the legality of this tax, and asking it to be suspended for visitors, means sorting these fine distinctions. that means EU court rulings and serious legal fees. Well above my pay grade, and beyond the resources of the Cruising Association.

Of the several hundred emails (from members and non-members) we have received on this subject, together with face to face events, over 75% accept that the tax is inevitable, and merely want advice as to what actions would minimise bills for their particular cruising plans. This group believes that even with this tax, Greece still represents good value for money compared to alternatives. Of the rest, about half are don't knows, and another half find that one or other quirk of the tax will curtail their time in Greece.

So, insofar as we have a mandate, we're working to the art of the possible. The impossible is to tell the Troika to take the pressure off the Greek government's plan to raise €20,000,000 income from leisure yachts cruising Greek waters - because 1% of yotties may leave. No point in wasting member's fees on the impossible . . .

 

[affinite]

Is there any truth in the rumour that this thread is to be turned into a board game in time for next Christmas

 

[JonJon]

Presume you mean bored game!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Presume you mean bored game!

No - I presumed he meant a Greek version of Monopoly using the Greek islands as streets. Problem is they can't afford to put houses on let alone hotels so you should be able to go round without having to find a way of going to jail to avoid paying your rent.

 

[akyaka]

Change the title to Greek Monopoly ?

http://www.turkishlifeforums.com/download/file.php?id=400&mode=view

 

[Chris_Robb]

Change the title to Greek Monopoly ?

http://www.turkishlifeforums.com/download/file.php?id=400&mode=view

Ha Ha.... Love the scouser one! The Greek one should have Tax offices instead of railway stations - so that the tax offices can be bought...........

 

[Bertramdriver]

Is there any truth in the rumour that this thread is to be turned into a board game in time for next Christmas

LOL. I needed that. Thanks

 

[Davy_S]

Came across this, it may be of interest.
http://news.gtp.gr/2014/01/04/greek-taxes-force-yacht-owners-sail-away/

 

[Tony Cross]

Came across this, it may be of interest.
http://news.gtp.gr/2014/01/04/greek-taxes-force-yacht-owners-sail-away/

See my post #791