New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Tony Cross]

My take also. Just as an example to put the point across ... to suggest to a murderer that he uses a different gun, or advise him of a more humane way to take aim is to condone the crime. To advise the Greek Government of the best way to collect this tax is ridiculous. Let Greeks work out their own way to collect the tax (which undoubtedly will not work). Allow the Greek Government to formulate their own law and rules rather than help them to smooth out the parts that would undoubtedly fail and hopefully bring down the whole shambles.

To interfere in this process and suggest ways that is acceptable is to ensure that any bad law will be defended by the Greek Government by pointing to the fact that the CA(s) were active in its implementation.

The only role the European CA clubs should have is to oppose this tax for non Greeks, period. Leave them alone to make a mess of it and it will die like the Italian attempt to tax non-Italians. But for Goodness sake stop suggesting a set of compromises that just might succeed in taking just enough money in a just enough palatable way to destroy the visitors budget.

The pre 2014 system of free passage with their own transport was just about the only advantage membership of the EU offered to ordinary people. Try and keep it.

Also agree
Without saying you are opposed to a tax which may be illegal is just condoning it and saying we will accept it.
I understand there has to be some form of dialogue but the CA and anyone else has to say "They are totally opposed to this tax which is ill-conceived"
Of course everyone has to decide for themselves what they are going to do.
For us we have no choice as it would cost too much so we have to vote with our keel.

So you would have preferred the CA to tell the Greek government that they (the CA and it's membership) is totally opposed to the tax and if they don't scrap it we'll all leave? And do you really think that would have made them change their minds, or even sit up and listen? It's much more likely that they would have simply ignored the CA. Do you have any idea how many CA members have their yachts in Greece? And do you know how those numbers stack up against the number of Greek owned yachts (who are the real target of this tax)?

If you demand something with threats that you know you're not going to get you just annoy your target and make certain that they won't listen to you ever again.

On the other hand, by working with the Greek government the CA may well be able to get changes made that make this tax more palatable. It's possible (though not likely) that because of the reasonable and cooperative way in which the CA has approached this the Greek government may review the entire tax.

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. So stamping your little feet and screaming you're going to leave might make you feel better but it's not likely to change anything.

 

[nickf]

It would appear that the CA has rolled over and accepted this tax .
Why not a letter to Ministry showing that the CA are advising its members to leave Greece.similar to what the Marina owners have sent.

I am not a member and the CA acceptance of this tax, to me will keep it that way.
Not knocking you Jim.b but it looks like a cosy London club.

As a member of the CA I fully endorse the position they have taken.
I would be extremely unhappy if they were objecting to a sovereign state imposing a tax per se. What I am pleased they are doing is making representations as to some of the difficulties and unintended consequences. For me [under 12m) even with the introduction of the tax, I will still find Greece cheaper to keep my boat than Italy or Spain and I prefer the area. If the CA were to recommend that members leave Greece then I would think that they had lost touch with reality. It is of course an individual decision -it will be a shame for the Greeks if a sizable number of boats leave but from a selfish point of view it will be less crowded for those of us who stay.

 

[Carmel2]

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. So stamping your little feet and screaming you're going to leave might make you feel better but it's not likely to change anything.

+1 softly softly does it.

PS Not a CA member.

 

[1bobt]

Well I don`t pay for moorings or on the hard parking.....My 14m boat is 10 meters from the sea, North coast of Aegina. Turn it into a bungalow for a year or two ... So I can take a, I`am all right jack attitude, as well.

I will be offering plenty of parking for yachts through out the spring

 

[silver-fox]

Come on guys give the CA a break!

It's a London based yacht club with a couple of thousand members worldwide (and growing) which means an insignificant presence in any one country. As a foreign organisation (as the CA is in Greece) it has to tread carefully and chose it's words wisely otherwise its efforts become counter productive. In these situations, well measured words spoken in private can have more influence than a more strident posture expressed publicly.

Nor should the CA suggest a boycott (or similar), it does not have the mandate from its members, and, speaking as a member, I am certainly not having any yacht club dictate to me where I can and cannot sail.

As itinerant sailors, we have to remember we are always guests. As such we should obey the house rules or, if we find them unacceptable for any reason, we can exercise our right leave.

I was in Sicily when the Italians were proposing a similar tax. Once Italian industry woke up to the real cost of trying to tax people who could vote with their feet, foreign vessels were quickly exempt and the law never implemented.

The impact of this Greek tax on my plans, assuming it is implemented, is that I shall still visit Greece and the Greek islands, but not for as long or in the leisurely way I had planned. Turkey will probably be the main beneficiary of this tax as I shall probably spend longer and much more money there!

In my eyes, the CA (and Jim in particular) has done a fine job of bringing us the news early and providing accurate and timely translations and updates as a result of which each one of us can decide whether we will visit and/or stay in Greece. I joined the CA so that I had access to information including local customs and regulations and I didn't unwittingly breach local rules through ignorance.

So far CA work has guided me through the Italian tax as previously mentioned, kept me informed on the Greek tax and fully briefed me on the blue card position in Turkey so that I have been able to modify my holding tank arrangements appropriately.

So thank you CA for doing a good job.

 

[1bobt]

....

 

[BurnitBlue]

The CA is a British cruising club and not a political movement and should not work with an overseas Government helping them to tax British citizens who don't live there. They should stand back and keep their noses out of it just like the RYA are doing. They can complain about the tax but that is as far as their "little tiny feet" should go.

They have no mandate from me or anyone else to negotiate terms of surrender with the Greek Government.

 

[1bobt]

+1, completely rolled over,Quislings comes to mind, but what`s the point of arguing between ourselves

 

[silver-fox]

+1, completely rolled over,Quislings comes to mind, but what`s the point of arguing between ourselves

Agreed it is pointless, but that is not to acknowledge how good you are at it - but what does a mere Quisling know?


quisling
ˈkwɪzlɪŋ
noun
1.
a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.
"he had the Quisling owner of the factory arrested"
synonyms: collaborator, fraternizer, colluder, sympathizer; traitor, turncoat, betrayer, informer, back-stabber, double-crosser, double-dealer, renegade, defector, deserter, apostate, Judas, snake in the grass, fifth columnist; informaltwo-timer; informaldog

 

[Bertramdriver]

What planet are you guys on? From the tone of some of the posts I am surprised you aren't calling for HMG to send a gunboat down to Greece. It's not our country, we are merely visitors and like it or lump it we have to follow their rules. Whether or not they can do what they intend will be determined by
Their ability to operate an effective payments collection system.....doubtful
The large number of cruisers who depart to avoid payment ......also doubtful
The political will in Athens to perpetuate a self destructive tax.....very doubtful
My take is that this will a typical Greek event with lots of huffing and puffing and vociferous debate over the months ahead, followed by a chaotic collection process being implemented by the autumn and culminating in a year or so with the PP not bothering to check if we've paid because the paperwork burden will be unmanageable.
So to one and all chill, wait and see and be Greek about it all.
Jim, thank you for your efforts, and you have certainly raised the profile of the CA. I'm not sure what your efforts will achieve but I suspect that the Minister responsible for this killer tax will need as much help as he can get to fend off the Troika hit men and the euro apparatchiks so he can slide it into the permanent pending tray.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Please could we get back to the thread and avoid what is starting.

There are differing approaches: I don't necessarily agree with the soft approach, but for the CA to do a hard approach, they would need to ask the members first. SO I think they are doing what they can within their limitations. I for one have made a much stronger approach to this via the shipping minister - but with constructive ideas to go with the strongly made complaints.

All of us can make - and should make - contact with the Shipping Minister and put our points as strongly as possible, but constructively if that is possible.

 

[Bertramdriver]

+ 1

 

[1bobt]

Agreed it is pointless, but that is not to acknowledge how good you are at it - but what does a mere Quisling know?


quisling
ˈkwɪzlɪŋ
noun
1.
a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.
"he had the Quisling owner of the factory arrested"
synonyms: collaborator, fraternizer, colluder, sympathizer; traitor, turncoat, betrayer, informer, back-stabber, double-crosser, double-dealer, renegade, defector, deserter, apostate, Judas, snake in the grass, fifth columnist; informaltwo-timer; informaldog

Good here isn`t it.......You have learnt another word.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Good here isn`t it.......You have learnt another word.

Slow down there Bob!

 

[1bobt]

Slow down there Bob!

Its only tongue in cheek.

 

[rotrax]

Come on guys give the CA a break!

It's a London based yacht club with a couple of thousand members worldwide (and growing) which means an insignificant presence in any one country. As a foreign organisation (as the CA is in Greece) it has to tread carefully and chose it's words wisely otherwise its efforts become counter productive. In these situations, well measured words spoken in private can have more influence than a more strident posture expressed publicly.

Nor should the CA suggest a boycott (or similar), it does not have the mandate from its members, and, speaking as a member, I am certainly not having any yacht club dictate to me where I can and cannot sail.

As itinerant sailors, we have to remember we are always guests. As such we should obey the house rules or, if we find them unacceptable for any reason, we can exercise our right leave.

I was in Sicily when the Italians were proposing a similar tax. Once Italian industry woke up to the real cost of trying to tax people who could vote with their feet, foreign vessels were quickly exempt and the law never implemented.

The impact of this Greek tax on my plans, assuming it is implemented, is that I shall still visit Greece and the Greek islands, but not for as long or in the leisurely way I had planned. Turkey will probably be the main beneficiary of this tax as I shall probably spend longer and much more money there!

In my eyes, the CA (and Jim in particular) has done a fine job of bringing us the news early and providing accurate and timely translations and updates as a result of which each one of us can decide whether we will visit and/or stay in Greece. I joined the CA so that I had access to information including local customs and regulations and I didn't unwittingly breach local rules through ignorance.

So far CA work has guided me through the Italian tax as previously mentioned, kept me informed on the Greek tax and fully briefed me on the blue card position in Turkey so that I have been able to modify my holding tank arrangements appropriately.

So thank you CA for doing a good job.

Well said sir.

As a new CA member I am impressed with how we have been kept up to speed so far.

I posted earlier saying that dealing with governments required nationally recognised bodies. The CA, as you say, is an association of interested Yachtsmen.

The national body for Water Sport and Yachting in the UK is the RYA.

It will be interesting to see how-if, indeed they do, respond on behalf of UK sailors.

As I see it so far its a dogs dinner and a definate maybe.

No doubt we shall soon see what payments-if any- are required for non Greek yachts.

I think it would be a good idea to watch this thread.......................

 

[Bertramdriver]

The CA is only for Yachtsmen? Aren't us mobos allowed to play?

 

[rotrax]

The CA is only for Yachtsmen? Aren't us mobos allowed to play?

Are you not a Motor Yachtsman?

 

[silver-fox]

The CA is only for Yachtsmen? Aren't us mobos allowed to play?

It seems its a day for dictonary definitions :encouragement:

Yacht

"After its selection by Charles II of England as the vessel to carry him to Britain from Holland for his restoration in 1660, it came to be used to mean a vessel used to convey important persons."


...and also

Bertam MY

You qualify twice over

No excuse for not coughing up for CA membership now -you qualify twice over

 

[Steve C Cronin]

My final word on this.

I'm sure that nobody here in the UK has any objection to the Greeks taxing their own population on what they see as "Conspicuous Wealth" but does that entitle them to do the same to their "Visitors" and "Customers"?

"Well" you may say, "some others will inevitably get caught in the net."

In which case I would ask - "Why then aren't the principles of the Common Fisheries Policy similarly applied here, where we are required, by law, to throw back inappropriate fish species, inadvertently caught, to whom the policy is not applicable?" I am not a species to whom the legislation, by their own admission, is aimed.