New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[BurnitBlue]

Among my contacts there is nought but despair, depression and acquiescence. Sad really that a whole society has been beaten into submission by the Troika eurocrats.

This is so very sad. I like the Greeks very much, I like their laid back attitude and tolerance for the disruption that tourists cause. I hope that tolerance never changes. I often wonder how I would react if I lived in a house overlooking Vlicho bay and saw the hundreds of yachts turn the bay into a smelly cesspit and a dumping ground for cheapskate boat owners who clog up the quays with scruffy wrecks. I think I would be angry, yet not a peep from the Greeks. Don't know how they manage to control their feelings and still smile when you say hello..

 

[BurnitBlue]

I have e-mailed the whole thread to the Greek Embassy.

Pedant mode ... I believe it is OK to post a link, but the whole thread? Copyright problem?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Right folks - Christmas is now over so stop drinking and get writing!

I had this reply from the Greek London embassy after writing with further queries.

Dear Mr Robb,
We have brought your comments to the attention of the Ministry of Marine and we invite you again to contact them directly at

Tel:	210 4191700 - 210 4064700
Fax	210 4191561 - 210 4191562 - 210 4191563
Internet Site	http://www.yen.gr/
Email	contact@yna.gov.gr

Regards ,

Katerina Tsounakou
Second Secretary for Economic and Commercial Affairs

So please write direct to contact@yna.gov.gr Mr Miltiadis Varvitsiotis

The question of Ashore or in the water needs to be expanded, to
a) make sure it does not apply to those hauled out,
but
b) to those who winter in water but don't use the boat.

I think possibly that it is wishful thinking that in "Greek water" and "docked" does not include those ashore. I hope not as my strategy next year is around coming ashore when I am away - I sail for 9-10 weeks only, going home July August - and back September.

I will be writing to the above for clarification on this. and also I will ask for an undertaking from the Greek Government that I cannot be charged a penalty (the boat is in the water) for late payment as I will not be there to pay.

I think the CA were a bit light on the potential costs - max €1,000 - as anyone turning up in June will get no discount - unless they make a concession - I did not think that was emphasized enough in the letter.

 

[1bobt]

Pedant mode ... I believe it is OK to post a link, but the whole thread? Copyright problem?

Open forum, anonymous user names, Who`s copyright

 

[BurnitBlue]

Open forum, anonymous user names, Who`s copyright

IPC terms of service. Involving IPC in what is a political issue, and inferring that IPC support the rants in the thread posted to the Greek Embassy.

 

[1bobt]

IPC terms of service. Involving IPC in what is a political issue, and inferring that IPC support the rants in the thread posted to the Greek Embassy.

What rants ? only yours above , I will wait in trepidation

Type. Terms and Condition, or, Terms of service into the YBW search engine.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I think the CA were a bit light on the potential costs - max €1,000 - as anyone turning up in June will get no discount - unless they make a concession - I did not think that was emphasized enough in the letter.

The letter is just a start for negotiations -

13m arriving in June has a choice:

a) pay by the month til you're pulled out - 4 x 130 = €520 ;
b) or 5 x 130 = €650
c) opt to pay for full year and base in Greece for winter; 30% discount, = €910

And if negotiations work out fully, no port police visits and 30 day stamps required (OK, so that saves many people nothing, 'cos they've never paid anyway, but just think of the peace of mind!)

The real problem about the law is its lack of clarity as translated, which leads people to make a whole range of assumptions about worst cases. Does everyone really believe that patrol boats will be flagging down every leisure vessel within 12nm or 6nm of Greek coastlines to check if they're got receipts for this tax? Get real!

An excellent outcome from negotiations will be an agreed translation, given to all yachtsmen on arrival in Greece, which includes answers to frequent questions (does a 13.2m yacht pay €132 per month? or €140 per month? - does a boat out of the water have to hold a receipt for the tax? - and so on).

The example to follow is that used by Croatia. Really clear instructions in English - see http://www.marinadalmacija.hr/en/pdf/Information%20for%20boaters%202013.pdf

Except that some quaysides/mooring/anchoring in Croatia is so expensive; 5 - 10 nights in popular areas can blow the whole year's tax difference in one go.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The letter is just a start for negotiations -

13m arriving in June has a choice:

a) pay by the month til you're pulled out - 4 x 130 = €520 ;
b) or 5 x 130 = €650
c) opt to pay for full year and base in Greece for winter; 30% discount, = €910

And if negotiations work out fully, no port police visits and 30 day stamps required (OK, so that saves many people nothing, 'cos they've never paid anyway, but just think of the peace of mind!)

The real problem about the law is its lack of clarity as translated, which leads people to make a whole range of assumptions about worst cases. Does everyone really believe that patrol boats will be flagging down every leisure vessel within 12nm or 6nm of Greek coastlines to check if they're got receipts for this tax? Get real!

An excellent outcome from negotiations will be an agreed translation, given to all yachtsmen on arrival in Greece, which includes answers to frequent questions (does a 13.2m yacht pay €132 per month? or €140 per month? - does a boat out of the water have to hold a receipt for the tax? - and so on).

The example to follow is that used by Croatia. Really clear instructions in English - see http://www.marinadalmacija.hr/en/pdf/Information for boaters 2013.pdf

Except some quaysides and anchoring (near mooring areas) there are so expensive. 5 - 10 nights in popular areas can blow the whole tax difference in one go.

Thanks Jim.

I have just sent this to the shipping ministry

Dear Mr Miltiadis Varvitsiotis.
Good Morning and a Happy New Year.

I have been concerned about this new tax on private boats in Greece and have been in correspondence - see email trail below - with your London Embassy. They have said I should write to you directly.

I am particular concerned with 4 points:
1. The law states "in Greek waters and Docked. It has been assumed by the Cruising Association - who have written to you- that this means when a yacht is ashore, it is not liable for the tax. Is this correct?

2. My Yacht - 12.3 Meters - is in the water at Leros all the year round. I only use it for 9 weeks a year, May June, and September. Will I have to pay an annual tax, or will I pay on the basis of when the yacht is used? ie 3 or 4 months tax. If there is a difference in treatment between in and out of the water, there will be a huge distortion at the boat yards with people leaving if they cannot get a berth ashore for the winter. It would be mad to make such a distinction.

3. It has again been assumed that the tax is a monthly one, but payable in advance and annually in advance for a discount. Is this correct, or is it an Annual Tax with no monthly allowance?

4. Is the tax charged on parts of meters, ie 12.3 meters will be 12.3 x €100 = €1,230?

If the answer to 2 above is that I must pay 12 months, I would like to obtain an indemnity for the Greek Government that I will not have to pay a penalty fee for none payment when I arrive in May to sail. I would also insist that I am able to take advantage of an annual payment discount, but as I have no means of paying until I am in Greece in May that will be impossible unless your electronic payment facility will allow EU Nationals to use this system without a Greek tax number.

I would like to point out that I and many of my friends are extremely unhappy with this tax, and I will make my decisions on whether I stay or not on the reasonableness of the implementation. If the implementation is anything like the way Port Police charge harbour dues - a chaotic and dismal system - where I pay anything from €7 per night to €26 for a rough concrete quay, I will leave. That will be a shame as I spend some €10,000 per annum in Greece each year.

I look forward to your considered reply.

I have asked many of the questions again, but from my individual perspective.

I will let you know what I have back.

Happy new year!

 

[Chris_Robb]

The letter is just a start for negotiations -

13m arriving in June has a choice:

a) pay by the month til you're pulled out - 4 x 130 = €520 ;
b) or 5 x 130 = €650
c) opt to pay for full year and base in Greece for winter; 30% discount, = €910

Arriving in June - in theory I will already be in default as I am in the water!!! and will have to pay the full annual plus a fine.......

 

[jimbaerselman]

Chris,
Excellent letter.
Arrival should be at a port of entry, when the tax will be payable - for a month, or a year, your choice! We're arguing that if the option is a year, it should automatically qualify for 30%. More hopefully, we're asking for 365 days, rather than a tax year (calendar year in Greece), on the grounds that will attract over-wintering yachts. But tax men think in tax years . . .

 

[Steve C Cronin]

This is so very sad. I like the Greeks very much, I like their laid back attitude and tolerance for the disruption that tourists cause. I hope that tolerance never changes. I often wonder how I would react if I lived in a house overlooking Vlicho bay and saw the hundreds of yachts turn the bay into a smelly cesspit and a dumping ground for cheapskate boat owners who clog up the quays with scruffy wrecks. I think I would be angry, yet not a peep from the Greeks. Don't know how they manage to control their feelings and still smile when you say hello..

My views concerning Vlikho, exactly.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Chris,
Excellent letter.
Arrival should be at a port of entry, when the tax will be payable - for a month, or a year, your choice! We're arguing that if the option is a year, it should automatically qualify for 30%. More hopefully, we're asking for 365 days, rather than a tax year (calendar year in Greece), on the grounds that will attract over-wintering yachts. But tax men think in tax years . . .

You really cause me some confusion. When I proposed what Chris has written in his letter you immediately accused me of being some sort of xenophobic Satan!

 

[homer]

Some years ago, at the boat show, I saw a Sadler 25 which had been raced across the Atlantic. The race rules prescribed a minimum length of 25 feet and as the Sadler 25 is actually only 24feet 8 inches, the skipper had bolted a small metal framework on the transom to extend the length and comply with the rules.
I am anticipating cruising through Greek waters for a few weeks (on passage from Turkey to Italy). If I were to lengthen my boat slightly (and make it over 12m) would I be able to pay one month's tax rather than one year's?

 

[rivonia]

Some years ago, at the boat show, I saw a Sadler 25 which had been raced across the Atlantic. The race rules prescribed a minimum length of 25 feet and as the Sadler 25 is actually only 24feet 8 inches, the skipper had bolted a small metal framework on the transom to extend the length and comply with the rules.
I am anticipating cruising through Greek waters for a few weeks (on passage from Turkey to Italy). If I were to lengthen my boat slightly (and make it over 12m) would I be able to pay one month's tax rather than one year's?

I would think that the authorities will inspect the ships papers. This will give the registered length.

 

[nimbusgb]

I would think that the authorities will inspect the ships papers. This will give the registered length.

The port police will probably just want to see just your registration document. If you are on an SSR it will be a simple matter to add a few inches. If it means paying monthly only for time in the water..................!

If you believe that any Greek port police are going to troll through thousands of boats papers then you have more faith in their dedication to thoroughness than I do!

 

[jimbaerselman]

You really cause me some confusion. When I proposed what Chris has written in his letter you immediately accused me of being some sort of xenophobic Satan!

Strong and bitter words indeed. Please tell me where to find your proposal so that I can see what sort of apology is in order . . .

 

[chuckr]

Let me get this straight, you don't trust a entire country becase they have introduced a tax??? If so, I strongly suggest you get rid of your mooring lines! Because you are never going to use them ever again.

carmel -- i have not idea where you have sailed or how many countries you have been to - as far as i can tell from you profile you have not been anywhere or sail anything - we have been to over 30 different countries and have yet to have a run in with any government officals -- because we do our home work --

the greek government like any government have to interpert the law and put it into force -- we simply do not trust them to say one thing and do another -- in the usa we use have good health insurance and the president passed a new bill and promised all that if they liked their doc and insurance they could keep them and it turns out he knew all along that that was a lie -- after the implimentation did the true interpertation come out - millions are losing insurance and their docs -

we simply do not trust the greeks until we see what actually happens --

i would say more about your posting but my mommy told me sometimes it is best to let small mined people alone

 

[Squeaky]

carmel -- i have not idea where you have sailed or how many countries you have been to - as far as i can tell from you profile you have not been anywhere or sail anything - we have been to over 30 different countries and have yet to have a run in with any government officals -- because we do our home work --
the greek government like any government have to interpert the law and put it into force -- we simply do not trust them to say one thing and do another -- in the usa we use have good health insurance and the president passed a new bill and promised all that if they liked their doc and insurance they could keep them and it turns out he knew all along that that was a lie -- after the implimentation did the true interpertation come out - millions are losing insurance and their docs -
we simply do not trust the greeks until we see what actually happens --
i would say more about your posting but my mommy told me sometimes it is best to let small mined people alone

Good evening:

Years ago I was impressed when locals spoke to me in such a way to indicate that they had "sussed" my nationality and wondered how they did it. Now I find that I am beginning to recognize posts by Americans without knowing anything about their background - simply based on the tone of their post.

Wow, can you imagine "thirty countries" - this experience really should make us sit back and pay attention when you speak and prevent posters such as Carmel2 from ever daring to question your post. He should sit back and pay attention to his superiors especially if they are American.

"we simply do not trust them to say one thing and do another" - This sentence suggests to me to mean that you expect the Greeks to say and do the same thing however it seems that you probably mean that you don't expect them to do what ever they say they will.

I fail to see what your experience with the American government has to do with the matter under discussion and I think it only indicates that you are a Republican supporter who will never be happy about anything the Demoncrats do which is what has led to the near crippling of the American political scene.

Nice to see that you absorbed something from your mother however she should have taught you how to recognize such people.

Cheers

Squeaky

P.S. Based on your present location I suspect you will head west in the spring and leave the Med so the matter under discussion will never affect you.

 

[Carmel2]

i would say more about your posting but my mommy told me sometimes it is best to let small mined people alone

That's nice.

 

[Chris_Robb]

That's nice.

Seconds out......

Never mind - the colonies are long gone and we don't have to worry about them any more! Their willingness to crash Obama's health bill just shows what an ugly unsavoury and selfish society the USA is.