New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Bertramdriver]

Come on guys, give us a break. Nobody is saying anything new and this reiteration of grievances is getting boring. If you want to rant take it to the lounge. As it is I'm sitting on a possible € 1300 bill when I arrive in April, so I'm as pis*ed off as anyone. Let's wait until someone comes up with some hard facts or interesting news.

 

[Carmel2]

I have not questioned if this Tax is right or wrong, I have not moaned about it, been up in arms about it, or praised it, neither have I been ambivalent about it.

I have simply asked has anyone tried to pay it before January 1 so as not incur a fine. How hard is it to answer my question without going off down the rights and wrongs of this Tax?

 

[Appleyard]

The way that things are,it seems that it is not possible to pay the tax before 1/01/14 .
Correct me if I am wrong but surely a tax demand of some sort has to be issued in order for the tax to be paid. In other words should everyone not just sit tight until they receive one?
And in this case, in order for demands to be sent out,the tax authorities (PP?) need to know details of every boat that is liable for tax?
As has been said...a shambles.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The way that things are,it seems that it is not possible to pay the tax before 1/01/14 .
Correct me if I am wrong but surely a tax demand of some sort has to be issued in order for the tax to be paid. In other words should everyone not just sit tight until they receive one?
And in this case, in order for demands to be sent out,the tax authorities (PP?) need to know details of every boat that is liable for tax?
As has been said...a shambles.

A Potential shambles. If we all don't co-operate then it will be a shambles..... who knows. However, I think there is certainly time to influence how it will be done and to protest to the shipping minister - who just may then realise what he is up against. Its just such a shame that the CA has rolled over to the principle of the Tax, as is just negotiating on the how. I am not really interested in the how at this point - more the NOT.

 

[jimbaerselman]

<snip> if it was about getting taxes from Greek boat owners who boat are reg out side Greece , how hard would be to past a law that says if you are a Greek national who own a boat no matter where it is registered you have to pay a yearly tax , if their can past this law , it wouldn't be hard to pass a different law <snip>

If you read the law more carefully, you will see that it nicely covers the case you quote. First, the law applies to all boats in Greek waters irrespective of flag. Second:

7. a. Persons liable for payment of T.P.P. are:
a) the owner or operator of the commercial recreational boat or commercial day-ship for tourists or his legal representative,
b) the owner or the occupier or user of the private recreational boat and
c) the owner or the occupier or user of small vessel.
All above are jointly and severally liable for the payment of T.P.P.

That's pretty comprehensive, and covers all escape routes, except those choosing to leave Greece. Of course, anyone choosing to leave Greece can re-register their boat elsewhere (as many Italian boats did, and that's why many Belgian registered boats are used by French nationals)

However, some 80% of the boats are used by Greek residents, so they won't leave. And for the large majority of boats above 16m LOA or so (especially crewed vessels), the tax becomes a very small part of their total operating costs, and won't affect their behaviour.

People most affected are those with very tight budgets . . . and the tourist authorities would like them to leave to make more space for bigger spenders.

 

[Tony Cross]

A Potential shambles. If we all don't co-operate then it will be a shambles..... who knows. However, I think there is certainly time to influence how it will be done and to protest to the shipping minister - who just may then realise what he is up against. Its just such a shame that the CA has rolled over to the principle of the Tax, as is just negotiating on the how. I am not really interested in the how at this point - more the NOT.

I think the point has been well made that the CA, even in company with other European sailing associations, is unlikely to be able to convince the Greek government to abandon this tax, it's their third attempt at collecting a "luxury" tax on Greek owned yachts and they're not likely to let it go easily. It's much more likely that opposition from within Greece will have that effect. So I think the CA is right to try to affect this tax in probably the only way they can, by highlighting inconsistencies and illegalities in the way it's implemented.

There is no point in standing up and shouting "NO!" if you're pretty sure nobody will listen, often a "YES, BUT" has more effect. One of the best bosses I worked for made it clear that he didn't want us to bring him problems, he wanted us to bring him solutions. That's what the CA is doing I think.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I think the point has been well made that the CA, even in company with other European sailing associations, is unlikely to be able to convince the Greek government to abandon this tax, it's their third attempt at collecting a "luxury" tax on Greek owned yachts and they're not likely to let it go easily. It's much more likely that opposition from within Greece will have that effect. So I think the CA is right to try to affect this tax in probably the only way they can, by highlighting inconsistencies and illegalities in the way it's implemented.

There is no point in standing up and shouting "NO!" if you're pretty sure nobody will listen, often a "YES, BUT" has more effect. One of the best bosses I worked for made it clear that he didn't want us to bring him problems, he wanted us to bring him solutions. That's what the CA is doing I think.

I prefer the "NO, BUT" approach especially at the early stage. Yes I agree that we have next to no chance to stop it. We needed IMHO to convey a little bit more anger, but still with constructive suggestions which the CA has done the latter but not the former.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

If you read the law more carefully, you will see that it nicely covers the case you quote. First, the law applies to all boats in Greek waters irrespective of flag. Second:



That's pretty comprehensive, and covers all escape routes, except those choosing to leave Greece. Of course, anyone choosing to leave Greece can re-register their boat elsewhere (as many Italian boats did, and that's why many Belgian registered boats are used by French nationals)

However, some 80% of the boats are used by Greek residents, so they won't leave. And for the large majority of boats above 16m LOA or so (especially crewed vessels), the tax becomes a very small part of their total operating costs, and won't affect their behaviour.

People most affected are those with very tight budgets . . . and the tourist authorities would like them to leave to make more space for bigger spenders.

Registering elsewhere seems to be irrelevant in respect of this tax which will be charged to ANY nationality of vessel having the affrontery to dare to sail in "Precious" Greek waters!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I think the point has been well made that the CA, even in company with other European sailing associations, is unlikely to be able to convince the Greek government to abandon this tax, it's their third attempt at collecting a "luxury" tax on Greek owned yachts and they're not likely to let it go easily. It's much more likely that opposition from within Greece will have that effect. So I think the CA is right to try to affect this tax in probably the only way they can, by highlighting inconsistencies and illegalities in the way it's implemented.

There is no point in standing up and shouting "NO!" if you're pretty sure nobody will listen, often a "YES, BUT" has more effect. One of the best bosses I worked for made it clear that he didn't want us to bring him problems, he wanted us to bring him solutions. That's what the CA is doing I think.

** Give us a "For Instance".

 

[jimbaerselman]

he didn't want us to bring him problems, he wanted us to bring him solutions. That's what the CA is doing I think.

Exactly. The art of the possible.

The final attempts by Greek Marina Associations to halt this tax (in October and November, broadly telling the Ministry "we'll all go bust because boats won't come to Greece") resulted in press releases, but no discussions with the ministry that we were aware of.

** Give us a "For Instance".

The CA agenda of concessions is at: http://www.cruising.org.uk/system/files/Greek Tax email to Ministry.docx
Discussions on this with the ministry of Marine and Aegean have started.

 

[1bobt]

Come on guys, give us a break. Nobody is saying anything new and this reiteration of grievances is getting boring. If you want to rant take it to the lounge. As it is I'm sitting on a possible € 1300 bill when I arrive in April, so I'm as pis*ed off as anyone. Let's wait until someone comes up with some hard facts or interesting news.

I agree as said before not one absolute fact posted
Bloody good thread though,clears the bile.....

 

[westernman]

How hard would be to past a law that says if you are a Greek national who own a boat no matter where it is registered you have to pay a yearly tax , if their can past this law , it wouldn't be hard to pass a different law . they did it in Italy .

That would not work as those rich Greek nationals do not actually own "their" boats.

The boats are owned by offshore cooperations registered in locations which make the ownership chain very opaque. The boats are registered somewhere else. So neither the registry is Greek, nor is the boat owned by a Greek person or company.

 

[sailaboutvic]

That would not work as those rich Greek nationals do not actually own "their" boats.

The boats are owned by offshore cooperations registered in locations which make the ownership chain very opaque. The boats are registered somewhere else. So neither the registry is Greek, nor is the boat owned by a Greek person or company.

Hi Michael

Your comment is quite right , I know that and so do nearly everyone else , that some of the big motor boats are registered in some company name and they will get away with the tax one way or another like they have done for years , and when they have to pay it , they will just claim it back thought company expanses , so In reality it don't effect them , but there hundreds if not thousand more greeks who have their boat register under Dutch flag or SSR even Belgium flag which is easier then the SSR I been told and them yachts are in the owners name because they not some multi rich Greek who know how to hide but Jo block who don't want to declare to the tax man what he own .
So my point is , as some keep claiming this tax is to catch greeks , in that case it would be fairer if the tax was put on marina fees and harbour dues , these people who we speak off keep there boat in marinas and when not ,its move from harbour to harbour and yes I guess they anchor out now and then , but most of the time they are moored some where and in that way they still get there taxes without hitting people who just using Greece for some months or in some cases weeks or worst just sailing by .

The Greek government have done this in a very dirty way , it been kept hidden so everyone who kept his boat for the winter 2013 would get caught up in it and having no choose but to pay ,
my question to you all , if you knew before hand that if you wintered out in greece mean you would have to pay this tax , would you still stayed or wintered out else where ? . My guess a lot would had left , and the Greek government know this too no wonder it was kept quite .
I just thank god we decided to winter else where .
We lucky we not on a tight budgets but I still refuse to pay a tax to visit greece or sails though Greek waters .
IF THE GREEK GOVENMENT WANT MORE TAXES , collet from the people who haven't paid and not from visiting yachtmens and women from other country who are already helping Greece out through the taxes they pay in there own country .

 

[Glyka]

Hi Michael
but there hundreds if not thousand more greeks who have their boat register under Dutch flag or SSR even Belgium flag which is easier then the SSR I been told and them yachts are in the owners name because they not some multi rich Greek who know how to hide.

A British company costs 500 pounds yearly. All Britsh flagged boats are owned by such companies.

The joke about "Greeks don't pay their taxes" must end. The majority of Greeks (who are on a payroll) pay their taxes in advance. Freelancers whos' clients are companies pay at the time the invoice is issued. Most companies just avoid taxes the same way as worldwide (expenses etc). Those that don't declare their true income (and thus don't pay the right taxes) are some very small businesses (some restaurants and some shop owners - not all) and many doctors, plumbers etc. But because you usually deal with restaurants, bars, chandlers etc. you think that everything is like that. Well, it isn't.

Maybe some other time I will tell you how much (what percentage) tax I pay (as an analyst-programmer), and you will not believe it!

 

[RupertW]

A British company costs 500 pounds yearly. All Britsh flagged boats are owned by such companies.

I'm presuming that's a joke.

You are probably right that we deal mostly with the tax dodging end of the Greek population but unless the appetite is there to stop the cash economy then many people will continue to resent the apparent Greek wish to get others to bail them out so they don't have to pay tax. If I was in the Troika I'd be inclined to ban any cash transactions above €5 before paying any more money to a country that doesn't want to take responsibility for its own mess.

 

[Glyka]

I'm presuming that's a joke.

You are probably right that we deal mostly with the tax dodging end of the Greek population but unless the appetite is there to stop the cash economy then many people will continue to resent the apparent Greek wish to get others to bail them out so they don't have to pay tax. If I was in the Troika I'd be inclined to ban any cash transactions above €5 before paying any more money to a country that doesn't want to take responsibility for its own mess.

a) not a joke.
b) well, if you think that we can find 280.000 bar owners that should (and can) pay 1.000.000 € each, then problem solved.

The problem lies in polititians' corruption. And I'm not talking about bribery. It started with 2004 Olympics that were well above our means but were a very nice present to their friends, the constructors et al. (1.5 - 2.0 billion just for the security system c4i). Then, they kept borrowing in order to keep being elected. And of course the thing went out of control. When you borrow just to pay the interest, it always does. Now our 'friends' borrowed us again in order to save their banks. They know that they will never get their money back but now, it's not their friends and supporters that will pay the bill, it's just the taxpayers.

 

[Bertramdriver]

Glyka, we all have sympathy for our Greek friends and we all know how the Greek politicians conspired with the Brussels Eurocrats and the Olympic Authority to create this mess. But the future depends on every Greek person voting out the thieves and Liars from your parliament and voting in honest men with a vision for Greeces future.
Unfortunately the polls indicate that the people are turning to the left. This is the worst possible direction for the future unless left wing politicians have changed their religion based on tax and spend. What will secure the future is when people like you and your neighbours decide to stop being victims and start a new political party based on honesty and responsibility. Then perhaps Greek people will be able to hold their heads up again.

 

[Appleyard]

Well I hate to tell you all, but it is now January 1 in Greece,so the meter is running!

Anyway,have a happy new year,lets hope the whole thing goes tits up.

 

[nimbusgb]

Exactly. The art of the possible.

The final attempts by Greek Marina Associations to halt this tax (in October and November, broadly telling the Ministry "we'll all go bust because boats won't come to Greece") resulted in press releases, but no discussions with the ministry that we were aware of.


The CA agenda of concessions is at: http://www.cruising.org.uk/system/files/Greek Tax email to Ministry.docx
Discussions on this with the ministry of Marine and Aegean have started.

Quite why the CA didn't even raise the issue of boats under 12m being inequitably penalized is beyond me. A good reason not to join them!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Tax or no tax
happy new year everyone ......