New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Squeaky]

Good morning:

You forgot to mentioned the folded money in the hand when they shake hand.

A man I worked for in Corfu showed me how it is done - just watch to see if the official then
puts his hand in his pocket to pocket the money. Happens almost every time.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[rivonia]

The 2013 price list (2014 prices are the same) is at http://www.marinaofaghiosnikolaos.gr/index.php/price-list. If your boat is 12m or longer you will get a 7% discount off the yearly price and another 8% if you pay in advance.

And if you have a greek tax number (very simple and easy to get) you will get and extra 5% discount on top as well-Go for it if you can get in. It is very very popular and fills up quickly. On the HARD ity is 1€ a day!!

Peter

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Squeaky
Lets not be under any disillusion about this , this law won't make any different to the rich Greek who don't pay there taxes , there will find a way around this like there have for hundreds of years .

Regarding making a fuss won't effect the out come , I disagree if a fuss wasn't made by Germans ,French and the Dutch as well as the Italian right now we all would be paying an Italian tax too .
My stand on this haven't changed , why are we having to pay a tax if we are just sailing though Greek waters ,
Why aren't people given the chance to move there boat out of Greece before the law comes in .
If as people says , what other ways is there to tax Greece yacht , I guess the answer to that is for the PP to check on the owners of the boat and not just where the yacht is reg .

 

[BrianH]

Regarding making a fuss won't effect the out come , I disagree if a fuss wasn't made by Germans ,French and the Dutch as well as the Italian right now we all would be paying an Italian tax too .

I think the Italian tax was rescinded in its first year because the Italian marine industry was very organised in lobbying parliament against the tax. The government dithered and kept amending the draft proposal, first halving the cost on age, then on sail. Finally, in recognition of the possible exodus of foreign yachts, they were excluded and the tax imposed on Italian registered yachts only; the Italian registry is only for 10m yachts and above.

Suddenly, more than usual, flags of convenience burgeoned in Italian waters and the cost of controlling and collecting the tax was more than the revenue was worth - the target of megayacht mafiosi, as in Greece, were slipping through the net.

So I think the Italian government was only being pragmatic, not that they were heeding any outside pressures.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The tax wasn't rescinded in the first year , it didn't come in at all for foreign yacht ,

 

[BrianH]

The tax wasn't rescinded in the first year , it didn't come in at all for foreign yacht ,

As I thought I made clear, before enactment the original blanket tax for all was amended to Italian-registered craft only because the leisure marine industry lobbied against it, one plank of theirs was based on the loss of foreign yachts, of which there are very many, especially in the north where many marinas, such as my own, have up to 50% of non-Italian yachts. After becoming law, it was rescinded within a few months, and as a fellow Italian forumite here recounted, offering to reimburse all payments.

 

[grumpygit]

Why is it that some people usually then once with more money then they know what to do with and throw it around like there no to morrow , seen to think this tax is ok .
If the Greeks government want to tax people for mooring in harbour or add a tax on marina fees that's fine , at less people have the choose to stay in Greece or not , but why should people who are just sailing though have to pay or people who are caught up in this because their happened to wintered out there this year .
and I can't believe some people who been writing on here ( what all the fuss about the tax ) , hey guys if you have so much money that your not bothered about paying this tax I sure there a lot of us who be quite happy for you to pay our tax too .
There are plenty of cruises out there who are on a budgets and an extra 400 is going to make a big different to them .
As for us we , we left Greece last year and although we had plans to return this year , we now won't and stay away until Greece sort it self out .
Some one wrote " go where " there plenty of places to go , well for now because if this tax comes in it may be a different story in a year or two time .

I'll take some of your comments as a side swipe at me. No I don't want to pay the tax and I do think it's an unfair tax but what can little ole me do about it. We live on a budget and if we have to pay things will for us have to change somewhat. SHMBO can not beleive how well I'm taking the bad news but what is the point of getting all hett up and bothered as I personally can't change a thing, and as I've often said, if I have to pay I will. Croatia uses a similar tax for their waters even for transit. Over a year ago I heard a working group of Greek government officials that went to Croatia to see how they ran their system so may be this is where it all stems from. One other point I like to share, and I hope the friend that sent me this doesn't mind we passing the following on.

Quote
I have a little more info about the tax.
I got together with a local boat-yard owner, and we called the central port police office in Piraeus.
Apparently this tax was instituted in January 2013, but no action has so far been taken. As yet, there are no instructions as to what is to be done in 2014. At present, the port police are not charging, and they have no information on future intentions.

As regards the tax, the intention is to charge boats over 12M at the standard rate of €400 + €100/metre length per annum... Therefore a 14 M boat would pay €600+VAT, instead of the €1400 which some sources are expecting.

End quote

Now this may or may not be, the left hand not knowing what the right is doing but I'll start to worry when the day comes, if it comes. Untill then I'll chill, may be a few others should instead of raising their blood pressure to unhealthy limits. The Greeks use a saying of "tinakanami" (excuse spelling) a meaning of "what can we do"

 

[paulingreece]

Yea but will any power or water come out of them , that's the big question

Nope, probably just the pipe dreams of the government

 

[BrianH]

The tax wasn't rescinded in the first year , it didn't come in at all for foreign yacht ,

I have had some time to look up a few facts this evening and consequently to correct my earlier posting.

No, you are right, the tax wasn't rescinded in the first year, when it began in May 2012, but this year, 2013. And it is not a full annulment but a further set of amendments that removes the tax entirely from vessels under 14m and halving that for those of 14m to 20m.

However, the reason that non-Italians were excluded by last-minute amendment from the tax was entirely due to "Federagenti Yacht, the lobbyist group of maritime industries in Italy which has been instrumental in achieving the amendment" ... before it became law. They predicted the exodus of foreign boat owners that would result in them being taxed. It had nothing to do with any intervention from other foreign agencies.

"The amendment limiting the tax [from non-residents] was passed by the Senate for Industry, Commerce and Tourism as the result of lobbying by maritime businesses and associations.
‘We were all very afraid,’ says Luigi Spiaggi, CEO of provisions at Mansueto Provision, part of the lobby which dissuaded the government from its course.
‘We commissioned a study and found we would have thousands fewer employees in the maritime industry because the boats wouldn’t come. But also the surrounding industries – the restaurant, the barber shop, the club, would be affected. For my company it would have been a complete disaster – we would have lost 20-25 per cent of our value.’"
​

The argument must have been persuasive but they had a good case as there are many thousands of marina berth-holders in northern Italy from Germany, Austria, Switzerland - even from Nordic countries and some eastern European ones. A German friend drives from Travamünde on the Baltic, the entire length of Germany and Austria, to his boat in my marina for the summer.

As it was, estimates for 2012 now quote approximately 30'000 Italian boats left Italy and have cost the economy 200 million euros in lost revenue from mooring fees, port services, and fuel sales.

I was also wrong to write that only yachts on the Italian register were to be taxed. The correct definition was: "the tax applies to yachts owned, chartered, leased, also on a finance lease scheme, by individuals/entities that are resident of Italy or having a permanent establishment in Italy (ie. foreign entities with a branch in Italy or performing activities in Italy) regardless of whether the yacht is flagged in Italy or overseas and regardless of whether it is kept in Italy or elsewhere."

My apologies for the errors.

 

[Glyka]

Let's make things clear.
If you used to go to a restaurant with nice food and low prices and suddently they change their prices and become expensive, there are some possible outcomes.
a. They might make more profit or they might lose all their customers. We must agree that it's none of your business.
b. You may keep going there despite the price change or you may look for another restaurant.
What you cannot do is go to the police (or anywhere else) and file a complaint against the restaurant.
Is the metaphor clear?

 

[westernman]

Let's make things clear.
If you used to go to a restaurant with nice food and low prices and suddently they change their prices and become expensive, there are some possible outcomes.
a. They might make more profit or they might lose all their customers. We must agree that it's none of your business.
b. You may keep going there despite the price change or you may look for another restaurant.
What you cannot do is go to the police (or anywhere else) and file a complaint against the restaurant.
Is the metaphor clear?

There is the situation which the majority won't like:-

- the Restaurant makes a little more profit than they did before, but with considerably fewer customers which results in considerably less work.

Some marinas seem to work on the same principle - put the prices up until a fair number start to leave, but make more money with less berths being used. Some people ask why they don't lower the price to get more people. Answer, they would not make any more money and would have to work harder.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Let's make things clear.
If you used to go to a restaurant with nice food and low prices and suddently they change their prices and become expensive, there are some possible outcomes.
a. They might make more profit or they might lose all their customers. We must agree that it's none of your business.
b. You may keep going there despite the price change or you may look for another restaurant.
What you cannot do is go to the police (or anywhere else) and file a complaint against the restaurant.
Is the metaphor clear?

Nice one, Glyka!

But the restaurant should not put its price up after you have ordered your meal!
And (as the law is worded) that's the case for visiting yachts planning to leave Greece next spring.

A bit like the (very rare) yards which raise launch and storage prices after they've got you out of the water! Moral - get it in writing first.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I have had some time to look up a few facts this evening and consequently to correct my earlier posting.

No, you are right, the tax wasn't rescinded in the first year, when it began in May 2012, but this year, 2013. And it is not a full annulment but a further set of amendments that removes the tax entirely from vessels under 14m and halving that for those of 14m to 20m.

However, the reason that non-Italians were excluded by last-minute amendment from the tax was entirely due to "Federagenti Yacht, the lobbyist group of maritime industries in Italy which has been instrumental in achieving the amendment" ... before it became law. They predicted the exodus of foreign boat owners that would result in them being taxed. It had nothing to do with any intervention from other foreign agencies.

"The amendment limiting the tax [from non-residents] was passed by the Senate for Industry, Commerce and Tourism as the result of lobbying by maritime businesses and associations.
‘We were all very afraid,’ says Luigi Spiaggi, CEO of provisions at Mansueto Provision, part of the lobby which dissuaded the government from its course.
‘We commissioned a study and found we would have thousands fewer employees in the maritime industry because the boats wouldn’t come. But also the surrounding industries – the restaurant, the barber shop, the club, would be affected. For my company it would have been a complete disaster – we would have lost 20-25 per cent of our value.’"
​

The argument must have been persuasive but they had a good case as there are many thousands of marina berth-holders in northern Italy from Germany, Austria, Switzerland - even from Nordic countries and some eastern European ones. A German friend drives from Travamünde on the Baltic, the entire length of Germany and Austria, to his boat in my marina for the summer.

As it was, estimates for 2012 now quote approximately 30'000 Italian boats left Italy and have cost the economy 200 million euros in lost revenue from mooring fees, port services, and fuel sales.

I was also wrong to write that only yachts on the Italian register were to be taxed. The correct definition was: "the tax applies to yachts owned, chartered, leased, also on a finance lease scheme, by individuals/entities that are resident of Italy or having a permanent establishment in Italy (ie. foreign entities with a branch in Italy or performing activities in Italy) regardless of whether the yacht is flagged in Italy or overseas and regardless of whether it is kept in Italy or elsewhere."

My apologies for the errors.

Barnacle no need to apolgise , I was given you my experience with first hand info , we was in Italy all that winter , we watch the TV news crew interview us and other cruisers , time and time again , this was all encourages by the marina , we also had member of other Europe CA turn up to take on the fight so yes there was things happening by other countrys , although at no time did we see anyone from the UK ,thats not to say that they wasnt involved .
what or who in the end changed the goverment view on the tax I guess the truth , will never be known, but one thing is for sure if every one just sat on the ass and did nothing because they took the view that there was nothing they could do , just like some people have been suggested here we would now be paying another tax in Italy too .

 

[BrianH]

Barnacle no need to apolgise , I was given you my experience with first hand info , we was in Italy all that winter , we watch the TV news crew interview us and other cruisers , time and time again , this was all encourages by the marina , we also had member of other Europe CA turn up to take on the fight so yes there was things happening by other countrys , although at no time did we see anyone from the UK ,thats not to say that they wasnt involved .
what or who in the end changed the goverment view on the tax I guess the truth , will never be known, but one thing is for sure if every one just sat on the ass and did nothing because they took the view that there was nothing they could do , just like some people have been suggested here we would now be paying another tax in Italy too .

I too had some first-hand experience as NE Italian marina and boat-yard managers, berthing and apartment rental agencies, plus many other boating trade representatives from where I am berthed, were regularly attending meetings in Trieste to coordinate their presentations to the government in Rome. I was kept in the picture by friendly relationships with some of them.

However, feedback from those involved, who were mostly interested in retaining foreign yachts like ourselves, indicated that the government were ultimately influenced by the spectre of losing short-term berthing of mega-yachts, particularly on the west coast and islands. That part of the lobbying was most powerful and projected the most financial losses if the owners decided to boycott Italy.

I really do not think representation by the RYA, CA, DSV or any other foreign sailing organisation could have had the clout that the Italian marine industry lobby had. Perhaps Greece should have taken an example ... Or perhaps they did but the Troika was more inflexible and demanding than Mario Monte was.

 

[akyaka]

But the restaurant should not put its price up after you have ordered your meal!
And (as the law is worded) that's the case for visiting yachts planning to leave Greece next spring.

But Governments do . For example Turkey recently reinterpreted the rules on the 90/180 day Tourist visa and then fined people when they left for overstaying even though within the rules in place when they entered the country.

 

[nimbusgb]

My yard at Preveza has just informed me that they have just been notified about the tax but without any details of how it is going to be applied.

 

[Squeaky]

But Governments do . For example Turkey recently reinterpreted the rules on the 90/180 day Tourist visa and then fined people when they left for overstaying even though within the rules in place when they entered the country.

Good morning:

Would appreciate a reference or link in support of this claim. Have heard absolutely nothing about this locally.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[jimbaerselman]

Would appreciate a reference or link in support of this claim. Have heard absolutely nothing about this locally.

I think he's referring to the shift from " you may visit for any 90 days within the 180 days from the date of issue of this visa" to "90 days within any 180 days". This was, in fact, a shift in EU legislation, which had two conflicting interpretations until a court hearing a couple of years ago. Turkey immediately brought itself into line with the new EU practice.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I emailed to the Greek embassy in London and got this reply:

Dear Mr Robb,
Thank you for your e-mail.
According to the Greek Minister for Marine and the Aegean, the aims of the new tax on pleasure boats are to strengthen public revenue and to correspond to similar charges in force in neighbouring countries (Spain, Italy), but not to act as a disincentive to tourists. You will find attached an (unofficial) translation of the article related to the new tax on pleasure boats, detailing modes of payment as well as available discount schemes (i.e. for boats permanently moored in Greece), which we hope may be of interest to you. For further information and exchange on this matter please contact directly the Ministry of Marine at:

Tel:	210 4191700 - 210 4064700
Fax	210 4191561 - 210 4191562 - 210 4191563
Internet Site	http://www.yen.gr/
Email	contact@yna.gov.gr

Kind regards and season’s greetings,

Katerina Tsounakou
Second Secretary for Economic and Commercial Affairs

EMBASSY OF GREECE IN LONDON
Economic & Commercial Section
1A Holland Park
London W11 3TP
Tel: +44 (0) 2077278860
Fax: +44 (0) 2077279934
Email: commercial@greekembassy.org.uk
Webpage: http://www.agora.mfa.gr/gb66

Their assertion that all the neighbouring countries are doing the same is mad! I have emailed back and pointed out that Italy has dropped its tax, Spain only taxes spannish flagged and residents, and Croatia has recently made theirs so cheap as to not worry anyone.

I would suggest that you all send emails to this address highlighted above. - The more the better.

They also sent a translation of the law which is essentially the same os the ones we have already seen bot does say that an electronic method of payment will be available during January. The rest of us will pay port police - no doubt different for each official you speak to.

 

[1bobt]

I emailed to the Greek embassy in London and got this reply:

Dear Mr Robb,
Thank you for your e-mail.
According to the Greek Minister for Marine and the Aegean, the aims of the new tax on pleasure boats are to strengthen public revenue and to correspond to similar charges in force in neighbouring countries (Spain, Italy), but not to act as a disincentive to tourists. You will find attached an (unofficial) translation of the article related to the new tax on pleasure boats, detailing modes of payment as well as available discount schemes (i.e. for boats permanently moored in Greece), which we hope may be of interest to you. For further information and exchange on this matter please contact directly the Ministry of Marine at:

Tel:	210 4191700 - 210 4064700
Fax	210 4191561 - 210 4191562 - 210 4191563
Internet Site	http://www.yen.gr/
Email	contact@yna.gov.gr

Kind regards and season’s greetings,

Katerina Tsounakou
Second Secretary for Economic and Commercial Affairs

EMBASSY OF GREECE IN LONDON
Economic & Commercial Section
1A Holland Park
London W11 3TP
Tel: +44 (0) 2077278860
Fax: +44 (0) 2077279934
Email: commercial@greekembassy.org.uk
Webpage: http://www.agora.mfa.gr/gb66

Their assertion that all the neighbouring countries are doing the same is mad! I have emailed back and pointed out that Italy has dropped its tax, Spain only taxes spannish flagged and residents, and Croatia has recently made theirs so cheap as to not worry anyone.

I would suggest that you all send emails to this address highlighted above. - The more the better.

They also sent a translation of the law which is essentially the same os the ones we have already seen bot does say that an electronic method of payment will be available during January. The rest of us will pay port police - no doubt different for each official you speak to.

WELL done Chris
Perhaps some one cleverer than me will be able to forward this whole thread to them

Thanks again
bobt