New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[nimbusgb]

Not wanting to instigate disobedience but...

If your boat is stored ashore and you arrive in June with the intent of launching and leaving ....

Your passage through Greek waters is purely to leave.

Unless the marina gets involved in policing this tax then I see very little stopping me from launching and setting course straight offshore.

Even if ( in the very unlikely event that ) you are stopped one could argue the case.

 

[jordanbasset]

It might have changed in the last year but there was very little policing of bays, in fact I cannot recall any, when you anchor, so very unlikely to get caught if you just want to leave Greece.In many of the harbours in the Ionian there was also little policing, often no port police present at all. Similar for the peloponese, did not get as far as the Aegean so maybe different there.

 

[nimbusgb]

It might have changed in the last year but there was very little policing of bays, in fact I cannot recall any, when you anchor, so very unlikely to get caught if you just want to leave Greece.In many of the harbours in the Ionian there was also little policing, often no port police present at all. Similar for the peloponese, did not get as far as the Aegean so maybe different there.

That was my point. In 8 years I have been approached by PP or a walker along the quayside asking for revenue twice, maybe three times ( wasn't sure about one of them ). There is a patrol boat tied up across the water from us but I have never seen it off the wall.

 

[chuckr]

By the way - our first cruise off shore was from miami to the bahamas who have a $250USD entrance fee for 6 months - we did not bulk and paid it -- not an issue - and we will sail to coatia next year and pay what we are hearing and learning is a big fee - a simple fee is one thing but the Greeks have simply over done it -- 1220 euros for less than 3 months is well --- i won't say but it is what comes out of a bull after eating a lot of grass

we have done long sails before and will do one again to get around greece i guess - it is what it is

 

[BurnitBlue]

Not wanting to instigate disobedience but...

If your boat is stored ashore and you arrive in June with the intent of launching and leaving ....

Your passage through Greek waters is purely to leave.

Unless the marina gets involved in policing this tax then I see very little stopping me from launching and setting course straight offshore.

Even if ( in the very unlikely event that ) you are stopped one could argue the case.

You do not understand what I am saying. I will try again to explain. I come from a family of lawyers and enough osmosis has percolated through to me from war stories to give me a certain perspective. When a law has been tripped it stays tripped. When a man loses his temper and shoots someone in the head it matters not a jot in law that the deed was done in the 4 nanoseconds it took for the bullet to leave the gun and enter the head. The law was tripped and it is obvious to all that it stays tripped. The same applies to the Cruising boat tax. The second your boat makes contact with Greece (inshore waters and land) you are liable to pay the tax. The law as it stands has been gazetted. If a skipper leaves Greece without paying that tax he is now breaking the law because (as it stands) there is no provision in this law for rights of passage which must be spelt out for a mitigating reason.

Therefore, even if a skipper does escape to a position outside Greek waters there will be a paper trail (from marina or port police) which an aggressive collection agency can use if that boat returns to Greece at any time. The initial fee plus a 100% fine still applies to that boat.

Please realise that I am not saying that this will happen. I am saying that in law it CAN happen. It is also a truth that two opposing laws can co-exist at the same time, and yes you could argue about it but in a court, not to the collector of the tax. Until rights of passage or whatever is written into the tax thing then it will reside alongside quite happily.

Let me give an example some friends of mine were involved in. There is (or was) in the UK a law on the right of every (with few exceptions) British Citizen to stand as a candidate for Parliament. There was also a law under some defence umbrella that a serving member of the armed forces could not be involved in politics or stand as a candidate for Parliament. All went well with these two laws sitting side by side until the Daily Mirror (I think) ran a story that any seviceman could get out of the armed services by slapping down a £150 deposit to stand as an independant. Release from the service would be automatic and opened the floodgates. The Government "solved" the problem by intimidation and expensive lawyers to decide which law should be obeyed on an individual basis. Nobodies pay check was that big.

 

[pelissima]

By the way - our first cruise off shore was from miami to the bahamas who have a $250USD entrance fee for 6 months - we did not bulk and paid it -- not an issue - and we will sail to coatia next year and pay what we are hearing and learning is a big fee - a simple fee is one thing but the Greeks have simply over done it -- 1220 euros for less than 3 months is well --- i won't say but it is what comes out of a bull after eating a lot of grass

we have done long sails before and will do one again to get around greece i guess - it is what it is

1220 is for 12 months, 3 months should be 400 something... Of course I dissagree on the 12 meter threshold

 

[BurnitBlue]

1220 is for 12 months, 3 months should be 400 something... Of course I dissagree on the 12 meter threshold

It is my understanding that the YEARLY tax for the over twelve meters is rather more money than people are prepared to carry around in their pocket. It has happened in many countries that a yearly TV tax or a yearly rates tax is allowed to be payed by the month or sometimes by the quarter. More like a PAYG. It is a convenience offered to the over 12 meters to alleviate the impact of a yearly tax paid in one lump sum.

In other words it is an installement on a yearly fee rather than monthy fee for a months cruising.

 

[vyv_cox]

Unless the marina gets involved in policing this tax then I see very little stopping me from launching and setting course straight offshore.

As I recall writing a long way up the thread, this depends entirely upon your marina/yard and its relationship with the local port police. In Ionion Marine at Preveza they were not the slightest concerned whether you paid the PP or not, but I understand that at Cleopatra next door they will not launch you unless you have paid. At Kiladha they would neither lift nor launch us unless we had first given them the permit and receipt from the PP. In Leros (Evros) we are back to the Ionion Marine situation, where marina staff do not require a permit.

 

[macd]

1220 is for 12 months, 3 months should be 400 something... Of course I dissagree on the 12 meter threshold

As Burnitblue wrote, this monthly fee is nothing of the sort, but merely an instalment on the annual fee, all of which which becomes due if you're in Greek waters. At least, that seems to be the only logical interpretation of the new law as understood, according to learned submissions in the previous 600-odd posts. Of course none of us will know for sure until the tax comes into force, but I for one will be basing my plans on a worst case interpretation.

 

[jimbaerselman]

In other words it is an installment on a yearly fee rather than monthy fee for a months cruising.

At present I think you and macd are wrong here. However, this is one of the (many) points about which CA is seeking clarification. Then we'll know!

 

[Glyka]

I think that JimB is right. The law says about "monthly fee", without any mention to instalments.

 

[macd]

At present I think you and macd are wrong here.

Thanks, Jim, and apologies all-round. I certainly hope I'm wrong, for everyone's sake.

 

[BurnitBlue]

At present I think you and macd are wrong here. However, this is one of the (many) points about which CA is seeking clarification. Then we'll know!

I think that the confusion is based on an interpretation of a Greek Legal document translated into English everyday idiom. Read some pure English Law written in Legalese. It reads like gibberish and can only be understood by the Man on the Bus when it is dumbed down into idiom. Have you ever waited for a bus in Greece. I once let two buses pass me before I realised they were going to the same place I was headed. The illuminated sign on the front of the bus was in Phi, delta Pi language and not only that but even after I had translated it, the place had a totally different name on the map.

I would say that any translation of a Greek legal document written in Phi delta pi language into idiomatic dumb downed English is a minefield for mistakes and wishful thinking. Come on, why would the Greek offer a monthly get out to large boats they are targetting but non to the small fry in 8 meter boats?

 

[goboatingnow]

I think that the confusion is based on an interpretation of a Greek Legal document translated into English everyday idiom. Read some pure English Law written in Legalese. It reads like gibberish and can only be understood by the Man on the Bus when it is dumbed down into idiom. Have you ever waited for a bus in Greece. I once let two buses pass me before I realised they were going to the same place I was headed. The illuminated sign on the front of the bus was in Phi, delta Pi language and not only that but even after I had translated it, the place had a totally different name on the map.

I would say that any translation of a Greek legal document written in Phi delta pi language into idiomatic dumb downed English is a minefield for mistakes and wishful thinking. Come on, why would the Greek offer a monthly get out to large boats they are targetting but non to the small fry in 8 meter boats?

Exactly and your last line is very logical. I've seen a google translation of the original Greek text and its different slightly to the CA text. For example it's clear the 30% will apply to all lengths. The law makes it clear exactly like new Croatian tax, that it is an annual tax. Hence then why allow only 12m+ boats to pay by the month. Nope I Beleive it's " instalments"

 

[Carmel2]

I wonder if its going to be transferable? By that I mean a friend of ours is selling his boat and has a interested party, by the time its done and dusted (fingers crossed) Our friend will be obliged to pay the tax, but will he be able to pass it on, or will the new owner have to pay all-over again?

 

[vyv_cox]

I wonder if its going to be transferable? By that I mean a friend of ours is selling his boat and has a interested party, by the time its done and dusted (fingers crossed) Our friend will be obliged to pay the tax, but will he be able to pass it on, or will the new owner have to pay all-over again?

That's the best Xmas avatar I have ever seen

 

[Carmel2]

Crossed post Vyv I just changed it

 

[Glyka]

For example it's clear the 30% will apply to all lengths.

Unfortunately, it's clear that it won't. It will only apply to boats of paragraph 2, case delta (over 12 m).

P.S.

As to the monthly payments, the law is contradictive (hence the confusion). In the begining of par. 2 it says clearly that it is an annual tax, whereas at case delta of the same paragraph (how to compute the fee for boats over 12m) it says about yearly and monthly fee. No mention of instalments or payment options.

The law is obviously a (silly) draft but, as it was in the same law with someting very urgent, it had to be gazetted. I hope that they will process it and reapply for vote. All we need is an MP to bring the issue to the house. Do you know anyone?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Unfortunately, it's clear that it won't. It will only apply to boats of paragraph 2, case delta (over 12 m).

P.S.

As to the monthly payments, the law is contradictive (hence the confusion). In the begining of par. 2 it says clearly that it is an annual tax, whereas at case delta of the same paragraph (how to compute the fee for boats over 12m) it says about yearly and monthly fee. No mention of instalments or payment options.

The law is obviously a (silly) draft but, as it was in the same law with someting very urgent, it had to be gazetted. I hope that they will process it and reapply for vote. All we need is an MP to bring the issue to the house. Do you know anyone?

Is the methodology of making Greek law so different from the UK? Here a law that was uninterpretable would end up being sent back by the courts on its first challenge. Surely when the Minister of shipping does his "Instructions" these will HAVE to be based on the letter of the law as written - he just cannot make it up so that it is sensible - that would mean he was making the law and not parliament.

 

[nimbusgb]

Considering that tourism and sailing brings in a fair amount of revenue to the Greek state it is apparent that the law makers and civil service have little clue as to how yachting works at all!

Still, no different to here I suppose. Keeps the lawyers and tax consultants in work.