cmedsailor
Well-known member
Oh, s....t. You are correct. It is indeed in the gazette. (page 4413)
New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????
- Thread starter Chatelaine60
- Start date
Oh, s....t. You are correct. It is indeed in the gazette. (page 4413)
jimbaerselman
New member
First, the tax was enacted as Article 13 of Law 4211/2013 on 26 November 2013. It was gazetted as reference A 256 on 28th November. We were aware this was probably the case about a week ago, but didn't post it until we found proof on www.et.gr yesterday, the 12th December. http://www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax was then updated.
The Cruising Association, and equivalent organisations from Sweden, Germany and France, are working together to clear up what the proper interpretations of the law are. It is clear that some elements of the translations, if taken at face value, break international law. Others contravene EU directives. But these may just be mis-understandings. So, as organisations, rather than screaming "robbery", we're now finding out if our translations are wrong, and what the correct interpretations may be.
We're also suggesting what implementations of the law may cause fewer yachts to be frightened away, and thus raise the tax take, as well as lowering angerlevels of those who wil pay the tax. And many thanks to all of you who put questions to the CA through the contact email address on the site. These built our wish list of changes.
We're presently awaiting the first Greek responses to our efforts. Christmas will interfere with timings, so don't expect revolutions before the tax starts to apply.
For those who wonder what on earth tax residence has to do with what's going on, search for the stories about what happened to a few people in Spain who didn't declare they were tax residents, and chose not to mention they kept foreign registered boats in Spain for more than 180 days. For a reasonably up to date reference on this matter, see http://www.jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad
Glyka
Member
I don't understand why you are so confused. It's so simple. A law is proposed. People is able to see the proposal. That (the proposal) is what we were talking about some weeks ago.
Then, the law ia presented for vote in the parliamen where minor or less minor changes can be proposed.
If the law gets the vote it will inevitably become a law of the state WHEN the average citizen is notified. Then and only then the law is effective (with some exceptions I think, but then, I 'm not a lawyer and in any case it is clearly stated on the voted and signed draft).
OTOH, before the law gets printed, a new law can pass altering the first one in which case a voted law never becomes effective.
P.S. Oh s..t it is really gazetted. I saw it with my very eyes...
Then, the law ia presented for vote in the parliamen where minor or less minor changes can be proposed.
If the law gets the vote it will inevitably become a law of the state WHEN the average citizen is notified. Then and only then the law is effective (with some exceptions I think, but then, I 'm not a lawyer and in any case it is clearly stated on the voted and signed draft).
OTOH, before the law gets printed, a new law can pass altering the first one in which case a voted law never becomes effective.
P.S. Oh s..t it is really gazetted. I saw it with my very eyes...
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nimbusgb
Active member
So I'm not that far in the back then!
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
So I'm not that far in the back then!
No - but near enough to be hit with a piece of chalk...... Reminds me of our french teacher - rear gunner of a lancaster - deadly accurate with the chalk - and the board duster
Bertramdriver
Active member
Unacceptable abusive behaviour from your teacher. Do you need counselling? Can I handle your compensation claim?
No - but near enough to be hit with a piece of chalk...... Reminds me of our french teacher - rear gunner of a lancaster - deadly accurate with the chalk - and the board duster
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Yes, I have been feeling insecure ever since. Must be worth enough though to cover the greek tax (avoiding accusations of thead drift)
Marsupial
New member
I don't understand why you are so confused. It's so simple. A law is proposed. People is able to see the proposal. That (the proposal) is what we were talking about some weeks ago.
Then, the law ia presented for vote in the parliamen where minor or less minor changes can be proposed.
If the law gets the vote it will inevitably become a law of the state WHEN the average citizen is notified. Then and only then the law is effective (with some exceptions I think, but then, I 'm not a lawyer and in any case it is clearly stated on the voted and signed draft).
OTOH, before the law gets printed, a new law can pass altering the first one in which case a voted law never becomes effective.
P.S. Oh s..t it is really gazetted. I saw it with my very eyes...
OK I accept all that BUT and its a big BUT, the law is proposed and debated and amended , fine BUT in this case even if you or I were tax residents we would have no voice to effect any amendment in law that would affect us and we are NOT average citizens, NOT even considered citizens of Greece at all, and we have no time to consider alternative options. It smacks of Xenophobia - a Greek word apparently.
They claim to be an advanced democracy.
Retired in Crete
New member
The original Greek law is here (in Greek):
http://lawbank.forologikanea.gr/laws/viewArticle?article_id=11314
Following is a Google translation:
Article 13 (Law 4211/2013)
Finally residence and voyages (T.P.P.) pleasure boats and small vessels
0
One . A specific charge was called "End of Stay and Operate '(T.P.P.), which lies:
a) all recreational vessels / private and professional,
b) small motor vessel of length seven (7) meters or more and
c) professional tourist imeroploia overall length seven (7) meters or more.
The T.P.P. charged for all the above mentioned ships and small boats, regardless of their flag, sailing, moored or anchored in Greek territorial waters.
0
Two . The T.P.P. calculated on an annual basis, valid from 1 January to 31 December each year and is determined as follows: For a total length of seven (7) feet to eight (8) feet to two hundred (200) euros.
B. The total length of more than eight (8) meters and up to ten (10) feet to three hundred (300) euros.
c For the total length of more than ten (10) meters and up to twelve (12) feet to four hundred (400) euros.
D. The total length of more than (12) measures:
aa) per year, one hundred (100) per meter, calculated from the first measure or
bb) per month, ten (10) per meter, calculated from the first measure. The charge for recreational vessels and commercial tourist imeroploia halved provided the exclusive professional use.
0
Three . Where ships d of paragraph 2 of this permanently moored in Greek Territory, a discount of thirty percent (30%). The Minister of Marine and Aegean defined criteria of permanent mooring means of evidence for the provision of rebate and every detail required for the implementation of this paragraph.
0
4 . To calculate the T.P.P. take account of the overall length of the vessel or small vessel, which is listed in the document ethnicity or airworthiness certificate or rating certificate or Permit to Operate.
0
5 . A. Payment of T.P.P. conducted electronically as follows: aa. for ships or small vessels in the Greek Territory in December each year for the T.P.P. next year, bb. for ships or small boats that will enter Greek territory before entering or entering.
b Alternatively, payment of T.P.P. can be done as follows: aa. For ships or small vessels flying the flag state - state of the EU, entering the Greek Territory, Port Authority issuing the DE.K.P.A..
bb. For ships or small vessels flying the flag of a country outside the EU entering the Greek territory, the Customs Authority issuing the Transit (Transit Log).
cc. For ships or small vessels, regardless of flag, located in the Greek Territory at the time of entry into force of this Article, the competent tax office conducted or the Port Authority.
The main proof of payment T.P.P. kept with the shipping documents of the vessel or small vessel and demonstrated to the competent Port, Customs and Tax Authorities whenever required.
d If a check by the competent Port, Tax and Customs Authority found not paid T.P.P., detain the vessel or small vessel until payment thereof, carried out pursuant to the provisions of subparagraphs a and b of this. In any case it is found that has not been paid the T.P.P. penalty equal to one hundred percent (100%) the year attributable T.P.P. without discount.
0
6 . Any departure of the ship or small boat from the Greek Territory for any reason at any time before the expiry of T.P.P.
not create an obligation to refund any money from the State.
If re-ship or small boat in Greek Territory, as long as the T.P.P., there is no requirement to re-pay the T.P.P. for the period until the end force.
0
7 . A. Persons liable for payment of T.P.P. are:
a) the owner or operator of the recreational vessel or professional tourist imeroploiou or his legal representative,
b) the owner or the owner or user of the private recreational vessel, and
c) the owner or the owner or user of the small vessel. These are jointly and severally liable for the payment of T.P.P.
B. Matters relating to the establishment, control and release attributable acts are governed by the applicable provisions.
By decision of the Ministers of Finance and Aegean Marine and regulated the manner and process of recovery T.P.P. and any other relevant issue for the implementation of this.
0
Eight . For the purposes of this Article, the terms used have the following meaning: a recreational vessel means a vessel length of more than seven (7) meters in order for sailing and more than twelve (12) meters to a motor, the which has the ability of the general construction to use to carry leisure travel.
b recreational vessel means the recreational vessel capacity up to forty-nine (49) passengers, which has adequate and appropriate accommodation especially for passengers on the exploitation of whom a contract total charter.
c Private recreational vessel means the recreational vessel that is not professional in accordance with the provisions of this paragraph indent b.
D. Small vessel means any vessel overall length up to seven (7) meters in order for sailing and up to twelve (12) meters to a motor, which is used for recreation.
e Business Tourism Imeroploio: is the small vessel or recreational vessel or passenger tour boat, the flag State - State of the European Union or the European Economic Area, performing daily sea voyage in a twenty-four hours between ports, coasts and bays of Greek Territory, with the possibility of extension of up abroad in a single individual or group ticket ticket accompanied by a passenger manifest.
0
Nine . The T.P.P. must stay in the Greek Territory from 1.1.2014.
0
John
http://lawbank.forologikanea.gr/laws/viewArticle?article_id=11314
Following is a Google translation:
Article 13 (Law 4211/2013)
Finally residence and voyages (T.P.P.) pleasure boats and small vessels
0
One . A specific charge was called "End of Stay and Operate '(T.P.P.), which lies:
a) all recreational vessels / private and professional,
b) small motor vessel of length seven (7) meters or more and
c) professional tourist imeroploia overall length seven (7) meters or more.
The T.P.P. charged for all the above mentioned ships and small boats, regardless of their flag, sailing, moored or anchored in Greek territorial waters.
0
Two . The T.P.P. calculated on an annual basis, valid from 1 January to 31 December each year and is determined as follows: For a total length of seven (7) feet to eight (8) feet to two hundred (200) euros.
B. The total length of more than eight (8) meters and up to ten (10) feet to three hundred (300) euros.
c For the total length of more than ten (10) meters and up to twelve (12) feet to four hundred (400) euros.
D. The total length of more than (12) measures:
aa) per year, one hundred (100) per meter, calculated from the first measure or
bb) per month, ten (10) per meter, calculated from the first measure. The charge for recreational vessels and commercial tourist imeroploia halved provided the exclusive professional use.
0
Three . Where ships d of paragraph 2 of this permanently moored in Greek Territory, a discount of thirty percent (30%). The Minister of Marine and Aegean defined criteria of permanent mooring means of evidence for the provision of rebate and every detail required for the implementation of this paragraph.
0
4 . To calculate the T.P.P. take account of the overall length of the vessel or small vessel, which is listed in the document ethnicity or airworthiness certificate or rating certificate or Permit to Operate.
0
5 . A. Payment of T.P.P. conducted electronically as follows: aa. for ships or small vessels in the Greek Territory in December each year for the T.P.P. next year, bb. for ships or small boats that will enter Greek territory before entering or entering.
b Alternatively, payment of T.P.P. can be done as follows: aa. For ships or small vessels flying the flag state - state of the EU, entering the Greek Territory, Port Authority issuing the DE.K.P.A..
bb. For ships or small vessels flying the flag of a country outside the EU entering the Greek territory, the Customs Authority issuing the Transit (Transit Log).
cc. For ships or small vessels, regardless of flag, located in the Greek Territory at the time of entry into force of this Article, the competent tax office conducted or the Port Authority.
The main proof of payment T.P.P. kept with the shipping documents of the vessel or small vessel and demonstrated to the competent Port, Customs and Tax Authorities whenever required.
d If a check by the competent Port, Tax and Customs Authority found not paid T.P.P., detain the vessel or small vessel until payment thereof, carried out pursuant to the provisions of subparagraphs a and b of this. In any case it is found that has not been paid the T.P.P. penalty equal to one hundred percent (100%) the year attributable T.P.P. without discount.
0
6 . Any departure of the ship or small boat from the Greek Territory for any reason at any time before the expiry of T.P.P.
not create an obligation to refund any money from the State.
If re-ship or small boat in Greek Territory, as long as the T.P.P., there is no requirement to re-pay the T.P.P. for the period until the end force.
0
7 . A. Persons liable for payment of T.P.P. are:
a) the owner or operator of the recreational vessel or professional tourist imeroploiou or his legal representative,
b) the owner or the owner or user of the private recreational vessel, and
c) the owner or the owner or user of the small vessel. These are jointly and severally liable for the payment of T.P.P.
B. Matters relating to the establishment, control and release attributable acts are governed by the applicable provisions.
By decision of the Ministers of Finance and Aegean Marine and regulated the manner and process of recovery T.P.P. and any other relevant issue for the implementation of this.
0
Eight . For the purposes of this Article, the terms used have the following meaning: a recreational vessel means a vessel length of more than seven (7) meters in order for sailing and more than twelve (12) meters to a motor, the which has the ability of the general construction to use to carry leisure travel.
b recreational vessel means the recreational vessel capacity up to forty-nine (49) passengers, which has adequate and appropriate accommodation especially for passengers on the exploitation of whom a contract total charter.
c Private recreational vessel means the recreational vessel that is not professional in accordance with the provisions of this paragraph indent b.
D. Small vessel means any vessel overall length up to seven (7) meters in order for sailing and up to twelve (12) meters to a motor, which is used for recreation.
e Business Tourism Imeroploio: is the small vessel or recreational vessel or passenger tour boat, the flag State - State of the European Union or the European Economic Area, performing daily sea voyage in a twenty-four hours between ports, coasts and bays of Greek Territory, with the possibility of extension of up abroad in a single individual or group ticket ticket accompanied by a passenger manifest.
0
Nine . The T.P.P. must stay in the Greek Territory from 1.1.2014.
0
John
nimbusgb
Active member
^^^ Round and round and round we go!
Talk about keeping up at the back!
Talk about keeping up at the back!
chuckr
New member
we are an American boat currently wintering over in Tunisia -- we had planned to go to greece next year -- NO WAY now - not until they get this thing worked out -- we are 40' or 12.19m so our tax would be 1219euros -- and don't forget we only get 90 days in the eu - now some may say Oh you only have to pay 10euros a month or 122euros for the month and not the 1219 - that does not make sense as if the boat were 39' we would have to fork over 400 euros immediately - not sure how they put you on the hook for the 12 months months but they must have thought out something -
our problem is now getting to turkey without going through greek waters and that looks like another long sail around the bottom of greece - i bet turkey is just thrilled with this - then of course if boats leave greece for turkey that would work for turkey
just our thoughts and opinions
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in port yasmine hammamet tunisia for the winter
our problem is now getting to turkey without going through greek waters and that looks like another long sail around the bottom of greece - i bet turkey is just thrilled with this - then of course if boats leave greece for turkey that would work for turkey
just our thoughts and opinions
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in port yasmine hammamet tunisia for the winter
macd
Active member
There was a query earlier about how "innocent passage" might fit into this mess. chuckr's dilemma above touches obliquely on the same subject.
My understanding -- and I'm very far from an authority -- is that a legitimate (i.e. not contrived) passage which goes through Greek waters and out again falls under the innocent passage definition. My untutored reading is that for Greece to impose any general restriction on this, including a financial one, would be contrary to their treaty obligations. Such passages would be routine if sailing, for instance, up the Turkish west coast where dipping into Greek waters would be natural.
Equally, this is Article 18 from the relevant UN convention:
1. [Innocent] Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose of:
(a) traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; or
(b) proceeding to or from internal waters or a call at such roadstead or port facility.
2. [Innocent] Passage shall be continuous and expeditious. However, passage includes stopping and anchoring, but only in so far as the same are incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.
Would this mean that in a passage from say, Marmaris to the Dardanelles, it would be legitimate to anchor in Greek waters (other than at a port or roadstead) in the normal course of a passage without losing innocent passage status? I'm asking not what view the Greek authorities might take of this, which I think we can guess, but what maritime law has to say about it.
The full text of the convention is here: http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
My understanding -- and I'm very far from an authority -- is that a legitimate (i.e. not contrived) passage which goes through Greek waters and out again falls under the innocent passage definition. My untutored reading is that for Greece to impose any general restriction on this, including a financial one, would be contrary to their treaty obligations. Such passages would be routine if sailing, for instance, up the Turkish west coast where dipping into Greek waters would be natural.
Equally, this is Article 18 from the relevant UN convention:
1. [Innocent] Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose of:
(a) traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; or
(b) proceeding to or from internal waters or a call at such roadstead or port facility.
2. [Innocent] Passage shall be continuous and expeditious. However, passage includes stopping and anchoring, but only in so far as the same are incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.
Would this mean that in a passage from say, Marmaris to the Dardanelles, it would be legitimate to anchor in Greek waters (other than at a port or roadstead) in the normal course of a passage without losing innocent passage status? I'm asking not what view the Greek authorities might take of this, which I think we can guess, but what maritime law has to say about it.
The full text of the convention is here: http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
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jimbaerselman
New member
Your un-tutored reading is correct, and this is the key "wake-up" call which the British, German, French and Swedish Cruising Associations are using to open negotiations with the Ministry of Marine and Aegean, the body responsible for putting this law forward, and then implementing it.
Quite simply, as the translations are worded, they breach international law.
Writing now from the British Cruising Association point of view. It's probable that the drafters just failed to consider this point, and will phrase a suitable amendment. Luckily, this gives us a very good lever to start negotiations on most of the other issues which have been raised on this thread, on YBW fora and on the fora run by the various Cruising Associations.
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Tony Cross
Well-known member
That's good news Jim, it's clearly sensible and probably more effective for the European sailing associations to make a combined approach to the Greek government. Hopefully they can be persuaded that it's better to collect a small tax from a lot of boats that will then stay in Greece than it is to impose a large tax that many will avoid by leaving.
Thank you for your and the CA's hard work on this.
Appleyard
Well-known member
Second that motion.
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
To leave Greece a boat must travel through Greek waters. Most boats will have already been in Greece for some months from January 1st. (Their tax arrival day) therefore they would be liable for at least the first years tax. There is no way a boat can be launched in Spring without being connected some way with the land and water. The very second that happens the boat will be liable for the whole years tax. If a boat is wintered afloat (anchor or marina) there is even less chance of leaving to avoid that first years tax. Innocent passage may apply, but I dont think it would be safe to anchor or tie up somewhere to enable the boat to be commissioned for a sea passage to (say) Italy or Malta.
My point is that most skippers will vote to get that first years tax back in value by staying for the summer. By then the pain will have worn off and the majority mayl stay put for the next year also.
macd
Active member
Thanks, Jim. Good to know some of my marbles still work. It's maybe not the Cruising Association's strategy to be bolshie, but some individual cruisers might be interested in carrying a Greek version of the relevant UN convention (which I presume can be downloaded from their site). I'm just about bloody-minded enough to ask that any Greek tax collector who boards me signs a copy as understood. Anyone else for a class action suit?
More generally, next year we plan on sailing up to Istanbul and the Black Sea. The idea of not being able stop off at one of the zilllions of Greek islands without stumping up an utterly disproportionate €1400 along the way is bizarre. I'm a citizen of the sodding EU (of which, on the whole, I approve, so that sort of prejudice doesn't come into it). What happened to freedom of movement? I don't recall any caveat that it's only for the rich.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Mac - so far most people have been politely saying that this tax is fair in many respects and that we should contribute our fair share. Some of course have not been so polite. I personally have been concerned at how to pay it and keep sailing and how to mitigate the costs. I am beginning now to lean to the not so polite approach - whilst I am very fond of the Greeks, I just loath petty officialdom and their cockups - of which this is becoming more and more of an example. As a member of the EU, they should be capable of setting out laws which don't contravene international laws that have already been agreed to for starters!
If as stated on the Cruising forum, that in order to pay this tax one will have to register with the Tax office - that will be the ultimate in bad dreams - I know how long it took just to get a DEKPA and port exit stamp (€0.88 I was made to go back for this) in Corfu - only to find having gone through all the hoops that there were no DEKPAS to be issued!!!!
What a mess.
1bobt
N/A
As I said earlier no Police recite books for hauling, then wanting me to take a 53 euro ferry ride to Athens to pay .85 cent Tax...,,,,,,, Mister papers ,,,,YOU,come to Port Police office now!!!!
Utter chaos ....
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Marsupial
New member
Thanks Jim, that's what I thought.
HOWEVER, some translations use the term "permanently moored in Greece" - so we will have to wait and see what it all means in practice I suppose.