New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[1bobt]

Can anyone tell me how I can unsubscribe to this thread?

I am sick and depressed of hearing about how some English people who live in Greece despise the country and all who live in it.

How do I stop getting thread updates from this thread, PLEASE!

Just don't click on the tab .Its not difficult .

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Can anyone tell me how I can unsubscribe to this thread?

I am sick and depressed of hearing about how some English people who live in Greece despise the country and all who live in it.

How do I stop getting thread updates from this thread, PLEASE!

Don't count ME in on that. Love the place, it's just the corruption and inequity I dislike.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Good morning:
It seems that you would be happy to see the wealthy Greeks taxed however, while enjoying all the advantages of living in Greece, don't want the tax to apply to yourself. I believe that efforts have been made in the past to tax Greek yacht owners which failed because they registered their yachts aboard with "shell companies" or other tax avoidance means. This new tax will catch them IF they have their yachts in Greece however it will also catch foreign yacht owners at the same time. I think in some situations this is referred to as "collacteral damage".



Your comment about a boat of 40-45 ft (12-14 metres) being the minimum to live on comfortably brought a smile to my face which is usually quite difficult so early in the day when I read the news on line so thank you for that.

I am sure the local Greek communities and shop owners should make more of an effort to show their appreciation for you spending your hard earned money in their shops. However I doubt that you really contribute very much beyond normal living expenses as most of your major purchases will be made elsewhere and brought or imported from aboard. I don't know about yourself, and don't have time to research your posts, but many members on this forum seem to believe that local shop owners are "rip off merchants" and therefore source most required or desired items aboard if possible as I suspect you do also.

Taxes and many other things in life which are unavoidable impact on our lives and plans but if there is nothing that can be done to prevent these unwelcome events, I suggest you roll with the punches and make an effort to appreciate the good things in life - this will go a long way to reducing stress and unhappiness.

Cheers

Squeaky

You are certainly wrong about me. I source as much as possible in Greece, only importing when something is just not available there.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Bob, that is a real shame. I know how much time effort and will you have put into your presence in Greece. It is much more serious than the Euro pundits say - (Greek is set to grow) If only. They have not addressed the points that are causing the problem. Cut government costs one hell of a lot more - enforce existing taxes on fixed targets - don't raise new taxes that will hurt income from abroad.

At the end of it let Greece France etc be a lesson to all voters - we are responsible for the type of government we vote in. Though in England we don't have any democracy any more. - (Mid Lotian question). So not sure how we can keep our governments on a sensible non voter bribing course.

At last you two are getting hold of the reality of this short-sighted move. <183 days is OK for using foreign registered cars in Greece, one has to ask "Why not for boats?"

 

[goboatingnow]

Just to get back to the issues surrounding the tax, I have a sailing friend in greece and he reads and speaks greek. He claims there is a mis understanding ,

(a) The 30% will apply too all tax bands, if the boat is resident in Greece, ( Residency is not defined)

(B) Its an annual tax, hence the rates over 12m is not for monthly stays, you are merely allowed to pay the tax over a 12 months period ( cause its a bigger sum of money) .

(c) Hes on teh view that the monthly payment will only be open to Greek residents, who have bank accounts etc, (to stop you doing a flit)

he's of the view that some concession will be trashed for short term visiting boats, as the hassle of finding someone to pay the tax to on small islands etc is simply too excessive.

furthermore, he believes boats on the hard have to be on the hard for more then 12 months to escape the tax, i.e. the intention is to not levy them on vessels not capable of being in the water. so for the normal , 6 months on the hard brigade, you will be taxed for the year

again he think the "pay per month" is pay the annual tax amount by the month , not that the tax is applied by the month.

His comments would seem sensible , if you just view this as a property tax, which is what it is.

any comments Jim B

 

[rotrax]

My view, exactly. Well put but the CA's approach reminds me of the description once made of a certain Chancellor under Margaret Thatcher, remember "Being savaged by a dead sheep"? Added to that, the local bloke on the ground takes the view "My beloved Greece, right or wrong" so we're stuffed depending upon HIM* to "Fight" our cause.

*Could have hit the wrong key for one letter in that word but I'm not altering it.

You appear to be deluded regarding the function of the CA.

It is an old established Association for the assistance of members in their chosen pastime of cruising on the ocean.

If you are a member you will know it has a small staff and loads of volunteers, all over the world.

It is not, and never was meant to be an instrument for dealing with Governments.

In my view Greek Government legislation should be dealt with by the UK government. The RYA is the body recognised as the international voice of British Yachting.

I suspect that their legal team-if they are even aware of this storm in a teacup-conclude that unless Greece is in breach of EU law they would be unlikely to influence our Government to do more than communicate with the Greek Government in regard to this matter.

Bottom line is Greece is in the deep and smelly and must attempt to get out from their current position.

This is a revenue raising scheme that may or may not work.

How any of you expect the local CA rep. or the CA's London office to deal with the Greek Government is beyond me.

By the way-I have had similar situations with Motorsport costs caused by revenue raising schemes by Governments in the time just after the collapse of the Comicom countries.

Clubs and Associations will get nowhere except through their Internationaly recognised Governing Body-in the case of the UK the RYA, and only with the support of a Government Agency-Minister for Sport in the instances I mentioned with regard to Motorsport.

Dont load up on the CA's local people-they CANNOT deal at the level required as volunteers of such an organisation.

Thats my two 'pennyworth anyway..............................

 

[Chris_Robb]

Just to get back to the issues surrounding the tax, I have a sailing friend in greece and he reads and speaks greek. He claims there is a mis understanding ,

(a) The 30% will apply too all tax bands, if the boat is resident in Greece, ( Residency is not defined)

(B) Its an annual tax, hence the rates over 12m is not for monthly stays, you are merely allowed to pay the tax over a 12 months period ( cause its a bigger sum of money) .

(c) Hes on teh view that the monthly payment will only be open to Greek residents, who have bank accounts etc, (to stop you doing a flit)

he's of the view that some concession will be trashed for short term visiting boats, as the hassle of finding someone to pay the tax to on small islands etc is simply too excessive.

furthermore, he believes boats on the hard have to be on the hard for more then 12 months to escape the tax, i.e. the intention is to not levy them on vessels not capable of being in the water. so for the normal , 6 months on the hard brigade, you will be taxed for the year

again he think the "pay per month" is pay the annual tax amount by the month , not that the tax is applied by the month.

His comments would seem sensible , if you just view this as a property tax, which is what it is.

any comments Jim B

If i were to place a bet on the interpretation of this law, I would bet on this view above. To view it as a cruising tax is I think wrong as the facts disclosed for the above but there are just toooo many gaps in the legislation to be a cruising tax but fits a resident property tax perfectly.

I think the use of the word Residency is interesting. I am not aware that an inanimate object can be resident - unless the Greeks have changed the definition of the word - (but then they did invent most of our language). Does this mean then that the tax will apply only to people resident under the EU definition of greater than 183 days. If so - the tax would be fairly directed.

Remember that the Greeks have been wanting to find a way of raising taxes from Greeks who have been cheating on them. This seems a good way of doing it. It may however conform to the law of unintended consequences by driving more Greek boats to foreign flag with overseas companies which hide the true ownership or simply drive them abroad.

 

[1bobt]

At last you two are getting hold of the reality of this short-sighted move. <183 days is OK for using foreign registered cars in Greece, one has to ask "Why not for boats?"

I got hold of the reality of this short sighted move as soon as it was announced. Just did not think it was enough of a problem to rant & rave ,unlike you .
All you have done is alienate yourself ,from a large group of people with similar views .Which imo is folly.

 

[Retired in Crete]

It is easy to pick holes in any governments policies, but it rarely makes them change their minds.

The objective of this tax is to raise revenue. The method is to tax all boats in Greek waters over a certain size. You can moan as much as you like but the policy or the method will not change. The choice you have is simple; either pay the tax or take your boat to another country.

What is there not to understand?

John

 

[Steve C Cronin]

If i were to place a bet on the interpretation of this law, I would bet on this view above. To view it as a cruising tax is I think wrong as the facts disclosed for the above but there are just toooo many gaps in the legislation to be a cruising tax but fits a resident property tax perfectly.

I think the use of the word Residency is interesting. I am not aware that an inanimate object can be resident - unless the Greeks have changed the definition of the word - (but then they did invent most of our language). Does this mean then that the tax will apply only to people resident under the EU definition of greater than 183 days. If so - the tax would be fairly directed.

Remember that the Greeks have been wanting to find a way of raising taxes from Greeks who have been cheating on them. This seems a good way of doing it. It may however conform to the law of unintended consequences by driving more Greek boats to foreign flag with overseas companies which hide the true ownership or simply drive them abroad.

Just to throw another piece of information into the ring, I was curious to know why, this year at laying up (out of the water) the PP at Gouvia wanted to know if my boat was "permanently based" in Greece. Never been asked that before. It may mean something or maybe not.

 

[Chris_Robb]

It is easy to pick holes in any governments policies, but it rarely makes them change their minds.

The objective of this tax is to raise revenue. The method is to tax all boats in Greek waters over a certain size. You can moan as much as you like but the policy or the method will not change. The choice you have is simple; either pay the tax or take your boat to another country.

What is there not to understand?

John

Actually quite a lot.

Is it a property tax or a cruising tax for a start? Is it being levied on people with residential status only?

Only then we can make up our minds to support/pay it or not.

However it will not raise revenue from me for Greek income in general, because I personally will just spend less than last year. So the money raised by this tax goes where the Greeks don't want it to go - to paying the bloated government machine, the very reason why some Greeks don't like paying their taxes - others who don't pay are just rogues..

 

[Sybaris]

Does this mean then that the tax will apply only to people resident under the EU definition of greater than 183 days. If so - the tax would be fairly directed.

Not really, because they know as well as you that there are numerous expats here longer than 183 days but not tax registered.

Ok ok I know, someone here is bound to reply that "yes but they (the Greeks) are so useless that they can't even check how long people stay in their own country". Well if they did I am sure the same moaners here would complain and say that they should have a right to stay here anyway because they worked hard and paid their taxes (all taxes! yeah right) in Britain, and that Cameron should start to lobby for their rights.

And by the way 1bobt, if you actually are serious about investing in Greece then now is the time. The trick with investments is to buy at the bottom (or as near as possible) and sell at the top.

 

[Sybaris]

Just to throw another piece of information into the ring, I was curious to know why, this year at laying up (out of the water) the PP at Gouvia wanted to know if my boat was "permanently based" in Greece. Never been asked that before. It may mean something or maybe not.

So what did you answer? and do you spend more than 183 days / year here, and if so are you tax registered?

Cheers,
Per

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Just to get back to the issues surrounding the tax, I have a sailing friend in greece and he reads and speaks greek. He claims there is a mis understanding ,

(a) The 30% will apply too all tax bands, if the boat is resident in Greece, ( Residency is not defined)

(B) Its an annual tax, hence the rates over 12m is not for monthly stays, you are merely allowed to pay the tax over a 12 months period ( cause its a bigger sum of money) .

(c) Hes on teh view that the monthly payment will only be open to Greek residents, who have bank accounts etc, (to stop you doing a flit)

he's of the view that some concession will be trashed for short term visiting boats, as the hassle of finding someone to pay the tax to on small islands etc is simply too excessive.

furthermore, he believes boats on the hard have to be on the hard for more then 12 months to escape the tax, i.e. the intention is to not levy them on vessels not capable of being in the water. so for the normal , 6 months on the hard brigade, you will be taxed for the year

again he think the "pay per month" is pay the annual tax amount by the month , not that the tax is applied by the month.

His comments would seem sensible , if you just view this as a property tax, which is what it is.

any comments Jim B

I pay my Vodafone fees from a UK bank. Can't see the problem.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

So what did you answer? and do you spend more than 183 days / year here, and if so are you tax registered?

Cheers,
Per

Replies were, in order, Yes, no and no. However, I do have a tax office document issued by Vodafone when I took out my contract with them but my name is spelt incorrectly on it. They wanted my father's given name too which I found curious.

 

[Sybaris]

Only then we can make up our minds to support/pay it or not...

Once again, if you want to preach about bloated government machines and all the corruption, then you have to preach by example. You cannot simply make up your mind to pay a tax or not.

However it will not raise revenue from me for Greek income in general, because I personally will just spend less than last year. So the money raised by this tax goes where the Greeks don't want it to go - to paying the bloated government machine, the very reason why some Greeks don't like paying their taxes - others who don't pay are just rogues..

So if I understand the argument correctly;
1) Foreigners should not have to pay for the Greek mess up (ok, so we should lobby for VAT free shopping, tax free fuel and much more)

2) You are basically saying that taxes on a whole are useless to collect in Greece because they only go to the bloated government machine.
Well like any government machine it will always be bloated, so the Greeks might as well throw up their arms and turn into a new Somalia.
To that you will probably say that they can make it less bloated, and I will then counter (as I have already done verifiable date elsewhere in this thread) that they are doing just that now, and it is moving in the right direction at a far faster pace than anyone would have expected.

 

[Retired in Crete]

They wanted my father's given name too which I found curious.

This is universal throughout Greece and is because because of the tradition of naming their first born son after his grandfather and their daughter after her grandmother. Add this to the fact that you often get three generations living in the same house/street and you could have several people with the same name.

When George Papadopoulos who lives at Papandreou 87 goes to open a bank account, however, there are possibly four other George Papadopoulos who also live at Papandreou 87. They are his cousins. If you add to this the fact that few houses outside of the main towns have street names and house numbers the problem is even bigger. Which one is opening the bank account? How do you differentiate between them? Typically their fathers will all have different names so this is a convenient way to do it. If you want to guard against even two fathers having the same name you also ask for the mother's name. The chance of two people at the same address having the same name and both their fathers and mothers having the same name become infinitesimally small so you have a robust identification system.

I am sure the same problem occurs in the UK from time to time with the most common names but in Greece it occurs thousands of times in every town and city with even quite uncommon names because of the naming convention. It absolutely serves a useful and essential purpose in Greece. I used bank accounts as an example but the same problem applies for anything where identity is important, e.g. tax returns, insurance, property ownership, driving licence etc. Without it there would be chaos. If it were to be abandoned it would definitely not improve the efficiency of Greece, rather the opposite.

John

 

[Chris_Robb]

Once again, if you want to preach about bloated government machines and all the corruption, then you have to preach by example. You cannot simply make up your mind to pay a tax or not.



So if I understand the argument correctly;
1) Foreigners should not have to pay for the Greek mess up (ok, so we should lobby for VAT free shopping, tax free fuel and much more)

2) You are basically saying that taxes on a whole are useless to collect in Greece because they only go to the bloated government machine.
Well like any government machine it will always be bloated, so the Greeks might as well throw up their arms and turn into a new Somalia.
To that you will probably say that they can make it less bloated, and I will then counter (as I have already done verifiable date elsewhere in this thread) that they are doing just that now, and it is moving in the right direction at a far faster pace than anyone would have expected.

Yes, of course I can make up my mind whether to pay or not - I will either stay or leave!

And yes - we should not have to pay for the Greek mess up - its their problem and that of the Euro area.

And no - I am explaining why there is wide resistance in Greece to pay taxes. Some resist because they don't want to pay any tax if they possibly can. Others see the CONTINUANCE of bloated government sector (2 Million government employees on a working population of 4M) with little effort to deal with this base problem.

Moving in the right direction - just part of the bull**** to keep the euro tin can on its way down the road.

 

[Glyka]

2 Million government employees on a working population of 4M

I think that you have the wrong Greek friends and you that you should consider trusting less their opinion.

 

[Davy_S]

When George Papadopoulos who lives at Papandreou 87 goes to open a bank account, however, there are possibly four other George Papadopoulos who also live at Papandreou 87. They are his cousins

And dont forget Mr Papadopoulos who owns the laundrette where Dot Cotton works!