New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Glyka]

Just to clarify. Corruption in Greece is not the same as corruption in banana republics. It's not that politicians steal all the money (no more than in all countries that is). It's mainly buying votes by not saying no to any demand. That led to a more balanced 'family distribution of income' as reflected by the Gini index. To give an idea (to those not familiar with the term) about this index I post some examples:
1st Namibia 70.70
44th USA 45.00
92nd UK 34.00
96th Greece 33.00
and of course
135th Sweden 23.00

It doen't stop it from being corruption, but it is let's say 'good corruption'.

(I never worked for or with the public sector, so I 'm paying for this).

P.S. Thank you Ravi (although I was suspecting/hoping that this is the case)

 

[Bertramdriver]

Official price for 1 night on town quay in Greece for 12 meters is around €26 - ie they should - by the book - charge 2 days..........

Now take away the figure you first thought of, double it, subtract the day of the week and then spend an hour looking for change cos the port fee collector hasn't any

 

[1bobt]

Oh C'mon Bob! GHo tell that to the Marines!

Greece is considering slapping a €162 billion invoice on Germany as compensation for the Second World War
Athens has compiled a top-secret report that says the cash - enough to solve the Greeks' debt crisis - is owed in war reparations, Der Spiegel reported.4 Sep 2013

 

[Chris_Robb]

Now take away the figure you first thought of, double it, subtract the day of the week and then spend an hour looking for change cos the port fee collector hasn't any

Ha ha - as my old english teacher from Manchester used to say to me regularly... "Its not funny - it's sad....."

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Greece is considering slapping a €162 billion invoice on Germany as compensation for the Second World War
Athens has compiled a top-secret report that says the cash - enough to solve the Greeks' debt crisis - is owed in war reparations, Der Spiegel reported.4 Sep 2013

You REALLY should come in out of the sun!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Just to clarify. Corruption in Greece is not the same as corruption in banana republics. It's not that politicians steal all the money (no more than in all countries that is). It's mainly buying votes by not saying no to any demand. That led to a more balanced 'family distribution of income' as reflected by the Gini index. To give an idea (to those not familiar with the term) about this index I post some examples:
1st Namibia 70.70
44th USA 45.00
92nd UK 34.00
96th Greece 33.00
and of course
135th Sweden 23.00

It doen't stop it from being corruption, but it is let's say 'good corruption'.

(I never worked for or with the public sector, so I 'm paying for this).

P.S. Thank you Ravi (although I was suspecting/hoping that this is the case)

You CANNOT be serious. Much as the left would like to believe your assertion, can you justify that in respect of, say, the UK?

 

[Steve C Cronin]

And that is different from Britain (or many other Western economies), how?

Are you by any chance a Marxist? I know nothing of you. What is your experience of Greece and/or living there?

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Greece is considering slapping a €162 billion invoice on Germany as compensation for the Second World War
Athens has compiled a top-secret report that says the cash - enough to solve the Greeks' debt crisis - is owed in war reparations, Der Spiegel reported.4 Sep 2013

and how close to being paid or even acknowledged by the greater world do you think THAT will get? I know: some of them really believe that.

 

[charles_reed]

<<You CANNOT be serious. Much as the left would like to believe your assertion, can you justify that in respect of, say, the UK? >>

Perhaps, instead of the ill-researched Daily Mail, you'd like, Steve, to refer to the Economist site, which bears out Glyka's comments about the UK and US GINI coefficient moves in the last decade.
Because Greece is small and it's economic reporting suspect, it does tend to be overlooked in many comparative tables. The latest report comes down hard on both UK and US showing that the rich have got richer and the poor poorer both before and after tax redistribution.
No-one in their right mind can accuse the Economist of being left-wing (except the US Tea-Party and they're in IRS as well as mental trouble).

PS Glyka's figures somewhat flatter the UK, perhaps because they're from a different, older, source.

 

[charles_reed]

and how close to being paid or even acknowledged by the greater world do you think THAT will get? I know: some of them really believe that.

I think 1bobt is referring to the Greek urban myth that the Reichsbank (therefore the German state) appropriated all the Greek gold reserves in 1941. Many reckon now is the time to remind Strauble of that outstanding debt.

The only trouble with that theory is that Greek gold reserves, in 1941, were so small as to be unreported by the 1997 tribunal.

 

[Glyka]

I think 1bobt is referring to the Greek urban myth that the Reichsbank (therefore the German state) appropriated all the Greek gold reserves in 1941. Many reckon now is the time to remind Strauble of that outstanding debt.

The only trouble with that theory is that Greek gold reserves, in 1941, were so small as to be unreported by the 1997 tribunal.

No, the gold reserves were saved. It's about the (forced) loan during the occupation (acknowledged by the Reich).

 

[1bobt]

I think 1bobt is referring to the Greek urban myth that the Reichsbank (therefore the German state) appropriated all the Greek gold reserves in 1941. Many reckon now is the time to remind Strauble of that outstanding debt.

The only trouble with that theory is that Greek gold reserves, in 1941, were so small as to be unreported by the 1997 tribunal.

Urban myth,Don`t think so.......

Without having been provoked, the Wehrmacht — the Third Reich's armed forces — took over both Greece and Yugoslavia on April 6, 1941. In both countries, German soldiers set up a brutal occupation regime. As was usually the case in European nations invaded by the Germans, the high cost of the occupation was borne by the occupied country — and the Greek economy was plundered through forced exports.

This resulted in galloping inflation and a radically lower standard of living for Greeks. Additionally, the Third Reich forced the Greek National Bank to lend Hitler's Germany 476 million reichsmarks interest-free.

After Germany's surrender, the Allied powers organized the Paris Conference on Reparations in the Autumn of 1945. Greece laid claim to $10 billion, or half the total amount of $20 billion the Soviets suggested that Germany pay.

The suffering caused to Greece by the Nazis is undeniable. Yet at the same time, human suffering cannot really be measured. Independent historians unanimously agree that the total economically measurable damages suffered by Greece as a result of the German occupation, in both absolute numbers as well as proportionate to the population, put Greece in fourth place after Poland, the Soviet Union and the then Yugoslavia.

 

[Glyka]

The suffering caused to Greece by the Nazis is undeniable. Yet at the same time, human suffering cannot really be measured. Independent historians unanimously agree that the total economically measurable damages suffered by Greece as a result of the German occupation, in both absolute numbers as well as proportionate to the population, put Greece in fourth place after Poland, the Soviet Union and the then Yugoslavia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece)#Winter_of_1941.E2.80.931942 : In general, it is estimated that Greece suffered approximately 300,000 deaths during the Axis occupation as a result of famine and malnutrition.

In Athens only, 80-100.000 people died of starvation during the winter 41-42. No wonder, today's suicide rate is a joke for the Germans.
And yes, they are not my friends.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

<<You CANNOT be serious. Much as the left would like to believe your assertion, can you justify that in respect of, say, the UK? >>

Perhaps, instead of the ill-researched Daily Mail, you'd like, Steve, to refer to the Economist site, which bears out Glyka's comments about the UK and US GINI coefficient moves in the last decade.
Because Greece is small and it's economic reporting suspect, it does tend to be overlooked in many comparative tables. The latest report comes down hard on both UK and US showing that the rich have got richer and the poor poorer both before and after tax redistribution.
No-one in their right mind can accuse the Economist of being left-wing (except the US Tea-Party and they're in IRS as well as mental trouble).

PS Glyka's figures somewhat flatter the UK, perhaps because they're from a different, older, source.

I should have made it clear that I was referring to the corruption.
Oh; and Charles, I don't read the Daily Mail. Never have, on a regular basis. Like I said, what I'm passing on is mostly what I have gleaned from Greek friends.

Incidentally and a bit off-subject but why do so many here criticise the Daily Mail but you never see a word against the Daily Mirror? Curious

 

[Steve C Cronin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece)#Winter_of_1941.E2.80.931942 : In general, it is estimated that Greece suffered approximately 300,000 deaths during the Axis occupation as a result of famine and malnutrition.

In Athens only, 80-100.000 people died of starvation during the winter 41-42. No wonder, today's suicide rate is a joke for the Germans.
And yes, they are not my friends.

Just charge the new tax to the Germans, then. I notice that most of your taxis are rather large Mercs.

Yes, the Nazis (you never could find one after 1946) robbed Greece of most of it's food during the war AND a lot of Greeks killed Greeks during and post too. How much did the UK get from the Germans in post war reparations? I can't find any figures anywhere. Perhaps we were all in the same boat?

 

[Glyka]

Yes, the Nazis (you never could find one after 1946) robbed Greece of most of it's food during the war AND a lot of Greeks killed Greeks during and post too. How much did the UK get from the Germans in post war reparations? I can't find any figures anywhere. Perhaps we were all in the same boat?

I am not talking about reparations, I am talking about repaying a loan. Just what we are asked/forced to do.

 

[Bertramdriver]

I am not talking about reparations, I am talking about repaying a loan. Just what we are asked/forced to do.

Seems like a trip to the European Court could be coming. That will kick the issue into the long grass for at least ten years, and of course gives the government the opportunity to suspend interest and repayment on German loans. Piss off the Bundesbank.....no problem!

 

[Sybaris]

For those of you with a bit more optimistic outlook, and who are willing to spend a little time to read "the other side" of each argument without brandishing pure and verifiable facts as propaganda or Marxist Feudal slur, I just got a fresh report today issued by HSBC's global research department (and please spare me any comments along the lines that "it was the banks who got us in the mess to begin with")

Extract from report: Greek Banks (issued 2 December 2013 by HSBC global research)
Eye-catching stock market performance in the past three months…
The performance of the Greek stock market, and Greek banks, during the past three months has been spectacular, driven by increased liquidity in the market and expectations of a turnaround in the economy. The Athens Stock Exchange Composite
Index has risen 34% over the past three months, while Alpha, NBG and Piraeus were up by 34%, 58% and 54%, respectively, despite some sell-off from the peaks during the last month.

According to HSBC equity strategist John Lomax in a report dated 7 August – CEEMEA equity conversations –incorporating Greece, funding from Russia – the Greek economy is approaching an inflection point. Historical evidence from countries coming out of a financial crisis shows that, as the economies turned, so did the markets.

In addition, from a liquidity perspective, Greek stocks have been benefiting from the reclassification of Greece as an emerging market by MSCI. Greece is a much more relevant market for EM investors than it was for DM investors and
hence and it may see ongoing inflows.

You can find the report at: http://www.hsbcnet.com/hsbc/research

Regarding corruption, here is another article I read today. Again, understand that I am not saying Greece has cleared all it's corruption or financial problems right now, but they are clearly working hard in the right direction and should be given encouragement rather than slur and contempt.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...corruption-while-greece-improves-8981330.html

If you are spending time in Greece out of your own free will and because you like it here, then why on earth would you want to try to cheat the system by not paying harbour fees, "choosing" which taxes you deem correct and only pay those, or waiting for some utopian future when Greece has 0% corruption and only pay then. Be true to yourself if you cheat, and accept that your arguments are only made to eliminate any possible feeling of guilt. Many Greeks have accepted it so why shouldn't you.

Cheers,
Per

 

[Steve C Cronin]

For those of you with a bit more optimistic outlook, and who are willing to spend a little time to read "the other side" of each argument without brandishing pure and verifiable facts as propaganda or Marxist Feudal slur, I just got a fresh report today issued by HSBC's global research department (and please spare me any comments along the lines that "it was the banks who got us in the mess to begin with")

Extract from report: Greek Banks (issued 2 December 2013 by HSBC global research)
Eye-catching stock market performance in the past three months…
The performance of the Greek stock market, and Greek banks, during the past three months has been spectacular, driven by increased liquidity in the market and expectations of a turnaround in the economy. The Athens Stock Exchange Composite
Index has risen 34% over the past three months, while Alpha, NBG and Piraeus were up by 34%, 58% and 54%, respectively, despite some sell-off from the peaks during the last month.

According to HSBC equity strategist John Lomax in a report dated 7 August – CEEMEA equity conversations –incorporating Greece, funding from Russia – the Greek economy is approaching an inflection point. Historical evidence from countries coming out of a financial crisis shows that, as the economies turned, so did the markets.

In addition, from a liquidity perspective, Greek stocks have been benefiting from the reclassification of Greece as an emerging market by MSCI. Greece is a much more relevant market for EM investors than it was for DM investors and
hence and it may see ongoing inflows.

You can find the report at: http://www.hsbcnet.com/hsbc/research

Regarding corruption, here is another article I read today. Again, understand that I am not saying Greece has cleared all it's corruption or financial problems right now, but they are clearly working hard in the right direction and should be given encouragement rather than slur and contempt.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...corruption-while-greece-improves-8981330.html

If you are spending time in Greece out of your own free will and because you like it here, then why on earth would you want to try to cheat the system by not paying harbour fees, "choosing" which taxes you deem correct and only pay those, or waiting for some utopian future when Greece has 0% corruption and only pay then. Be true to yourself if you cheat, and accept that your arguments are only made to eliminate any possible feeling of guilt. Many Greeks have accepted it so why shouldn't you.

Cheers,
Per

Because the average Greek will pay €350 yet the average non-Greek 50% liveaboard will pay in excess of €1300.

 

[rivonia]

Because the average Greek will pay €350 yet the average non-Greek 50% liveaboard will pay in excess of €1300.

Where is the FACT (if it is). Let every one know so they can check out your statement