maby
Well-known member
That is, of course, the benefit of being in control of your currency! We can inflate our way out of trouble - Greece cannot.
New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????
- Thread starter Chatelaine60
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That is, of course, the benefit of being in control of your currency! We can inflate our way out of trouble - Greece cannot.
Sybaris
Member
Ok yeah!, now I understand. Of course it should be up to each individual to decide when they should start paying their taxes based upon their individual understanding of how corrupt or messed up the current system is. It should have been apparent to me that the best solution to this is for no one to pay their taxes until the corruption has been removed. Sarcasm warning again.
The Troika have defined a number of benchmarks that have to be improved in this "corrupt" system, and as far as I can see things are moving in the right direction. I can only talk of the Dodecanesos when I observe that all merchants now have to give VAT receipts, and if they don't the clients have a right to get their money back. This is a good start, and there are many other such corrections being implemented that we don't see on the surface. Greece's credit rating was raised last week Friday, again a good sign.
There will always be optimists and pessimists trying to forecast the future. Personally I feel Greece is moving in the right direction in many areas and am very optimistic. It will however not happen overnight. Having said that I totally disagree with those that argue the solution is to get out of the Euro and EU. That is to give up when you are almost there and would not be a long term benefit for anyone.
My main problem with your line of arguing is how you are going to judge when the system is good enough for you to pay your taxes and fees due, and if everyone follows your example how can a solution ever be found.
Per
Tony Cross
Well-known member
No thanks, that's precisely why I "retired to Crete" on a boat and not in a house, so I won't have to change my name to "Retired in Turkey".
What's that got to do with what we're discussing? I could equally argue that the cost of living in London is far higher than in Crete and that you should therefore be grateful you're not living in London!
I've not checked but I was under the impression that if you are an EU citizen normally resident in another EU country you are entitled to vote in national elections. You might want to check up on that? Though your choice of who to vote for here is limited to Noddy, Big Ears, and Little Weed. Plus a few Woodentops as well of course.
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
If all the countries in the world itemised their bill for the damage that Germans have caused over the past 100 years there would not be enough money on the planet to settle it. I guess though that the biggest bill would come from Moscow for, as Sir Winston Churchill put it, transporting Lenin in a sealed box car like a virus to Russia to help the German war effort in France. This was possibly their most despicable action alongside the gas ovens for another groupof humans they didn't like. The box car travelled through Sweden a nuetral country in 1917. Millions and millions of lives have been wiped out by German arrogance. Go Greece ... soak the bas tards for every cent you can get.
maby
Well-known member
Sticking with the euro would be the path to a strong long-term solution, but it is a recipe for a lot of short term pain. Greece needs to make a clear choice, then stick with it - and stop complaining about the conditions imposed from Germany - they are the price for staying in the euro - and will continue to be so into the indefinite future if they decide to stay in.
Sybaris
Member
+1 Well said.
Bertramdriver
Active member
Fundamental flaw in this argument. Greece will not make choices consistent with Northern Europeans expectations. They have a deeply embedded culture which fundamentally conflicts our values. The Greeks need to be given space to work out their own salvation in their own way. Concepts like patronisation, nepotism, bribery etc have been a foundation of their culture for a thousand years. What chance do the Troika have? FGS let the Greeks bail out of the Euro and find their own path without EU/ German meddling
maby
Well-known member
You misunderstand my argument - actually I expressed it badly. When I said "Greece needs to make a clear choice, then stick with it..." I meant "stick with the choice" not "stick with the euro". I agree that they should drop out of the euro - the pain of staying in is likely to be unacceptable. But they need to realise that, if they go back to their old ways, they will remain on the periphery of the EU - they will never match the productivity and lifestyle of the northern european countries.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Nail > Head.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Ouuch! +1
Steve C Cronin
N/A
Well, I'm very pleased to see that the discussion is coming around to my earlier description of Greek culture, expectations, corruption and refusal to grasp reality. Keep it up Lounge Members.
nimbusgb
Active member
I'm surprised Godwin didn't raise his head. I'd have put money on it a few posts ago but it seems to be settling back again now. :
Bertramdriver
Active member
That is seriously xenophobic stuff, illustrating a deep understanding of FA.
Sybaris
Member
Since there are so many macro economy and EU experts here, can one of you explain to me just how Germany is in charge of the so called "Troika" and how it is only German banks that are involved in the loans to Greece in the bailout agreements. And, oh, I almost forgot, look it up before answering with what you think you know or what mass media has portrayed it as being.
Sybaris
Member
As a side point I am enclosing a link that could prove interesting for all the Eurosceptics that might be lurking on the forum.
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/blog/
here is another very short, but to the point article which again offers a healthy balance to all Daily Mail and tabloid articles.
http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/comment/articles/2013-05/02/ukip-debunking-eu-myths
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/blog/
here is another very short, but to the point article which again offers a healthy balance to all Daily Mail and tabloid articles.
http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/comment/articles/2013-05/02/ukip-debunking-eu-myths
Bertramdriver
Active member
There are no easy answers to your questions but to provide a gross simplification, Germany is by far the largest contributor to the EU budget and the European Bank (euro). Germany's politicians also hold a deep seated belief in the principle of a Federal Europe (not so the general population***). Also remember the IMF is currently chaired by a French federalist. So the scene is set for the Troika to drive a federalist agenda and will thus support and discipline (punish) any country which puts the federalist project at risk. By lending so much to Greece during the 80s and 90's the major German institutions exceeded their capital base and could be described as insolvent if the Greek government defaulted on their loans and bonds. In other words the domino effect of related debt would first bankrupt the German banking system, then by association the European bank and finally the collapse of the Euro. End of Federalist dream.
You knock the daily mail as a source of balanced reporting but I find it a bit of a stretch to take either EU propaganda or GQ economic analysis seriously.
At the end of the day we will always believe the information that supports our prejudices and aspirations and as Goebals said "all truth is relative". It's just a question of which flavour you prefer.
*** It is rumoured that two years a ago a leading newspaper based in the Ruhrgebiet ran a telephone survey to ask 1000 Germans how they felt about Germany's membership of the EU and whether Germany should stay in the EU. T he results were definitive but never published.
You knock the daily mail as a source of balanced reporting but I find it a bit of a stretch to take either EU propaganda or GQ economic analysis seriously.
At the end of the day we will always believe the information that supports our prejudices and aspirations and as Goebals said "all truth is relative". It's just a question of which flavour you prefer.
*** It is rumoured that two years a ago a leading newspaper based in the Ruhrgebiet ran a telephone survey to ask 1000 Germans how they felt about Germany's membership of the EU and whether Germany should stay in the EU. T he results were definitive but never published.
Steve C Cronin
N/A
Are you serious? I described "Greek culture" What is xenophobic about that?
I described "Greek Expectations" What is xenophobic about that?
We ALL know about "Greek corruption" unless you are totally blind to what is going on around you. What is xenophobic about that?
and to state that they refuse to accept reality is what the whole world has been saying about them for years. What is xenophobic about that?
Please explain.
Steve C Cronin
N/A
When it's like the UK or the Scandinavian countries would do for a start!
Steve C Cronin
N/A
Oh C'mon Bob! GHo tell that to the Marines!
charles_reed
Active member
I'm not an €urosceptic but I'd hazard a guess that nearly all the small German banks are technically insolvent - hence the German distaste for the original ECB scheme for overall €urobank supervision.
Furthermore, if you ran an Europewide opinion survey (and dependent on how the question was put) you'd find a substantial majority who are thoroughly dissatisfied with it.
Not quite the same as suggesting it be wound up.
It's understandable that seeing that they're likely to be footing the bill to pay for others' past extravagances the Germans (and Nederlanders and Finns) are unwilling to dig deep in their pockets.
Don't forget that after the re-unification and under Gerhard Schroder the Germans had their own austerity programme. That discipline solved their problem and the Frau Doktor sees no reason why others shouldn't take the same medicine.