New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Bertramdriver]

So don't go to the port office for the DEKPA stamp.

Ahh but it is in the nature of chaos that on a smaller island there will be a visit from diminutive rookie port police person who will want to check your papers and will look for the magic stamp to say you have paid. No stamp opens up the scope for an almost unlimited fine and much back slapping from colleagues.

 

[BurnitBlue]

You all seem to be forgetting a very important rule for boats that are hauled out in Greece. The Boatyard, needs to get the permission of the coastguard BEFORE the boat is launched. I have been charged 10 euro for permission payable to Coastguard I presume, to launch every Spring from the Aktio boat storage "marinas". There is a notice on the board that states quite catagorically that the boats registration certificate etc. must be up to date and current before the boat can be launched. And all boatyard fees paid. Apparantly this at the moment does not include DEKPA so maybe, just maybe, the boat can be launched without the reciept that the Staying Fee has been paid. Maybe not.

In other words there is already a mechanism for the tax people to ensure the tax/fee is paid before launch. I hope the laid back attitude of the Greeks will prevail and I can get out before I have to pay. I am budgetting to pay though. However the law has not been gazetted as yet so let us hope.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Albert, Chris,

We now have 7 points for clarification/negotiation. Your items are included. CA is working with German, Swedish and French sailing organisations to see if we can work out a common approach.

 

[vyv_cox]

You all seem to be forgetting a very important rule for boats that are hauled out in Greece. The Boatyard, needs to get the permission of the coastguard BEFORE the boat is launched. I have been charged 10 euro for permission payable to Coastguard I presume, to launch every Spring from the Aktio boat storage "marinas". .

This is totally dependent upon the yard and maybe the local port police. At Preveza Ionion Marine, where we wintered for a couple of years, it never happened. At Kilada they would not lift or launch without a chit from the port police. At Leros, where we have wintered for three years, I have never even been to the port police office.

 

[nimbusgb]

You all seem to be forgetting a very important rule for boats that are hauled out in Greece. The Boatyard, needs to get the permission of the coastguard BEFORE the boat is launched. I have been charged 10 euro for permission payable to Coastguard I presume, to launch every Spring from the Aktio boat storage "marinas". There is a notice on the board that states quite catagorically that the boats registration certificate etc. must be up to date and current before the boat can be launched. And all boatyard fees paid. Apparantly this at the moment does not include DEKPA so maybe, just maybe, the boat can be launched without the reciept that the Staying Fee has been paid. Maybe not.

In other words there is already a mechanism for the tax people to ensure the tax/fee is paid before launch. I hope the laid back attitude of the Greeks will prevail and I can get out before I have to pay. I am budgetting to pay though. However the law has not been gazetted as yet so let us hope.

Kleopatra at Aktio is a member of the Greek marinas association and they are no doubt in the know as far as this is concerned. Aktio marine is not part of the association and they are apparently totally oblivious to the new tax. After sending them an initial enquiry which they replied to denying the existence of such a tax I sent them an email with a link to the Greek gazette. That mail has gone unanswered so far.

Once i know what the situation is i will make plans. If they are obliged to withhold a launch without a stamp I will be applying for a new ssr document with an extra .5m declared on it so that i can legally pay for just the months i sail in which will save me 200 euro next year. Unless i can get the 30% discount on top that is.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Kleopatra at Aktio is a member of the Greek marinas association and they are no doubt in the know as far as this is concerned. Aktio marine is not part of the association and they are apparently totally oblivious to the new tax. After sending them an initial enquiry which they replied to denying the existence of such a tax I sent them an email with a link to the Greek gazette. That mail has gone unanswered so far.

Once i know what the situation is i will make plans. If they are obliged to withhold a launch without a stamp I will be applying for a new ssr document with an extra .5m declared on it so that i can legally pay for just the months i sail in which will save me 200 euro next year. Unless i can get the 30% discount on top that is.

I would think that if the tax does become law by the time of launch then collection will depend on the agency selected by the Government to collect it. I have heard somewhere that a private agency will be set up and they will receive a percentage of what they collect. This has happened in Sweden for such things as TV licence etc so the perseverence and aggression of the collection agency makes the mafia look like a charity. If it is an established body like the local tax office or the coastguard then we are safe.

Nothing focuses the mind of a private collection agency like 10% of what they collect. If the opinion of the few Greek people I know is anything to go by then the owner of the private collection agency would be a cousin of a politicion and persue fees like a truffle dog. This to me is an interesting game of speculation as I sail for six month and I am less than 12 meters LOA.

However, it does not stop me from a feeling of resentment that I will be paying a Greek tax because of the Greeks in-built distaste to pay their own countries taxes themselves. So any sign of aggression collecting the tax and I will leave. Give me some room to manouvre and I may stay.

 

[Sybaris]

Ahh but it is in the nature of chaos that on a smaller island there will be a visit from diminutive rookie port police person who will want to check your papers and will look for the magic stamp to say you have paid. No stamp opens up the scope for an almost unlimited fine and much back slapping from colleagues.

Utter nonsense, I can't believe I am reading some of these comments. I guess you guys are way up there - so much superior to Greek people. So you are basically saying that they don't have a right to charge anyone to stay in their ports. Appalling.

Cheers,
Per

 

[charles_reed]

Messolonghi added the launch tax for the first time in 2013 - apparently the Port Police (with whom they have poor relations) came round at the end of October and logged every boat on the hard and told the marina to collect it and pass it on. I'm sure that many other yards are equally ignorant of Greek Law.

As to Tax farming - it was the norm in the Roman Empire (everything was privatised) and that lasted longer than any Western governmental system. Trouble is they'll still have their incompetent and bloated IRS/PP payroll to pay.

Per is, perhaps, not up to speed on this tax - cruising in Greece one does already pay light dues and port taxes - this is an additional charge. Probably it's been forced on the Greek government by their paymasters in the troika, because the various Greek governments have persistently overspent and under-collected, against their forecasts.
It's almost certain that Greece will need a third bail-out and their governments are still no nearer getting their fat-cat clients and relatives to pay their fair share of taxes. So an increasing and (in the words of Adam Smith) "inequitable" series of taxes are being inflicted on 'hoi polloi' and now their visitors.

 

[Bertramdriver]

Utter nonsense, I can't believe I am reading some of these comments. I guess you guys are way up there - so much superior to Greek people. So you are basically saying that they don't have a right to charge anyone to stay in their ports. Appalling.

Cheers,
Per

Well Per, it's not I often TBH first time that I've been accused of holding myself superior to Greek people.
My boat is in Greece because of the people, so please don't confuse affectionate ribbing with "superiority"
And I write as I have seen and experienced. I have helped Greeks develop their businesses, I have shipped out machine tools to create manufacturing jobs. But I also understand that Greece is a different culture to Northern Europe. I wish the Troika did as well.

 

[Tony Cross]

Utter nonsense, I can't believe I am reading some of these comments. I guess you guys are way up there - so much superior to Greek people. So you are basically saying that they don't have a right to charge anyone to stay in their ports. Appalling.

Cheers,
Per

Per, I have repeatedly said that I don't object to paying a circulation tax, I appreciate that we cannot expect to remain exempt whilst the Greek people are taxed almost out of existence. My problem with this tax (and my 13.7m yacht) is the massive step change at 12m, €600 or €700 would be a reasonable yearly tax, €1370 is not.

 

[Squeaky]

Well Per, it's not I often TBH first time that I've been accused of holding myself superior to Greek people.

I assume most members on this forum are adults who were educated at a time when they were taught to write proper sentences using the Queens English without the need to employ "text speak".

What the heck does TBH represent?

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[nimbusgb]

I assume most members on this forum are adults who were educated at a time when they were taught to write proper sentences using the Queens English without the need to employ "text speak".

What the heck does TBH represent?

Cheers

Squeaky

To Be Honest

Most people here seem to me to be happy to pay a cruising tax that is applied on an equitable basis.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Per, I have repeatedly said that I don't object to paying a circulation tax, I appreciate that we cannot expect to remain exempt whilst the Greek people are taxed almost out of existence. My problem with this tax (and my 13.7m yacht) is the massive step change at 12m, €600 or €700 would be a reasonable yearly tax, €1370 is not.

Tony - I think I would go further than you in my objections to paying. These taxes are going to pay/support a continuing rotten system which benefits only those in state work - apparently half the known working population. This is totally unsustainable and needs to be adjusted. Yes I feel sorry about the poor Greeks not benefitting from the corruption of their politicians, but the only way their country can deal with it is to create a sustainable standard of living - which may be a lot lower than where they are now, perhaps somewhere more towards the Bulgarians standards. Continuing to raise taxes to support a corrupt and unsustainable system is not the right way to go.

What of the Troika? Well their brief is solely to keep the crisis out of the Euro - and the only way to do this is to feed the gremlins.

How to sort out where they are? I have no idea apart from break the system and let it heal itself. Perhaps there is no answer - politicians should have done their job and not let this happen in the first place. It's a bit like the patient who was told by the doctor not to put his head in boiling water - he did and was looking for a cure......

 

[maby]

.... But I also understand that Greece is a different culture to Northern Europe. I wish the Troika did as well.

I don't see what that's got to do with it - they had two choices - leave the Euro or request a loan - when you take a loan, you accept the conditions attached.

 

[Bertramdriver]

The solution is relatively simple, as any student of Economic History knows. The Greeks should have the courage to dump the Euro and re institute the drachma and default on their Euro loans. To expect a population to suffer endless deprivation to maintain debts their corrupt and incompetent leaders have saddled them with is a recipe for social and economic collapse. I find it ironic that the country which suffered the penalties of the Versailles Treaty of 1918 which led to Germany's social and economic collapse and ultimately the rise of Hitler is now doing the same to Greece. Hence the sudden rise of fascism in Athens.
With the Drachma they can structure their society however they like, all they have to do is work out how to pay for it.
This would be a cold Turkey remedy as no further borrowing would be possible and the government would have to adopt self help, reconstructive programmes along the lines suggested by the Troika, but they would be Greek programmes, for Greeks and by Greeks. And what they would not do is introduce taxes and fees guaranteed to pi*s off tourists and boat owners. They understand the principles of a Geese and golden eggs.

 

[Cardo]

I don't suppose we could get some clarification on the boundaries?
According to the CA website, it's
7m - 8m €200

8m – 10m €300

10m – 12m €400

Over 12m €100/metre

So, for a 10m boat, which is what we have, is it €300 or €400? I really hope they've clearly defined this, otherwise it will fall down to the tax collector and won't be applied evenly.

 

[maby]

The solution is relatively simple, as any student of Economic History knows. The Greeks should have the courage to dump the Euro and re institute the drachma and default on their Euro loans. To expect a population to suffer endless deprivation to maintain debts their corrupt and incompetent leaders have saddled them with is a recipe for social and economic collapse. I find it ironic that the country which suffered the penalties of the Versailles Treaty of 1918 which led to Germany's social and economic collapse and ultimately the rise of Hitler is now going the same to Greece. Hence the sudden rise of fascism in Athens.
With the Drachma they can structure their society however they like, all they have to do is work out how to pay for it.

There's a big difference between Greece now and Germany in 1918 - Germany had just lost a major war and was being punished for starting it - and not punished enough as history demonstrated. Greece simply cocked up its economy, went bankrupt and took out a massive payday loan - they normally come with some very nasty strings attached.

 

[maby]

I don't suppose we could get some clarification on the boundaries?
According to the CA website, it's
7m - 8m €200

8m – 10m €300

10m – 12m €400

Over 12m €100/metre

So, for a 10m boat, which is what we have, is it €300 or €400? I really hope they've clearly defined this, otherwise it will fall down to the tax collector and won't be applied evenly.

You are missing the point - 10m falls in both ranges, so it's 700!

 

[Retired in Crete]

My problem with this tax (and my 13.7m yacht) is the massive step change at 12m, €600 or €700 would be a reasonable yearly tax, €1370 is not.

I think you have to put this into perspective. By Greek standards you are rich, after all you have a 13.7 m yacht! If you were a Greek taxpayer they would assume that your income was in the region of 30,000 Euros per year and tax you accordingly. If you declared less than this they would argue that you must have this income to afford the boat.

Compare yourself with the Greek who grows olives on the mountainside. He needs a big 4 x 4 pick-up in order to harvest his crop. His road tax for the coming year is 1,320 Euros plus he will have a "luxury tax" to pay on the pick-up. His pick-up is not a luxury, without it he could not work the land. All this is despite the fact that the olive crop this winter is almost non existant. Is it any wonder that the suicide rate is sky rocketing?

Compared with what the Greeks are currently suffering at the hands of the Troika the cruising tax is not such a bad deal! You have the luxury of going elsewhere, a choice the olive farmer does not have!

John

 

[1bobt]

There's a big difference between Greece now and Germany in 1918 - Germany had just lost a major war and was being punished for starting it - and not punished enough as history demonstrated. Greece simply cocked up its economy, went bankrupt and took out a massive payday loan - they normally come with some very nasty strings attached.

I live on Aegina .when talking to Greek friends they point out that the bail out was not to save Greece ,but German banks.