New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Zen Zero]

Summary: I'm not happy to pay it, but I'll pay it. I don't expect it to last for long.

I'll sit back and watch how this pans out. In the end though, I expect I'll pay up (current forecast is €300 for my 8 and a half meter boat) rather than bring her back to Italy or move her to Turkey. Boat taxes elsewhere have usually turned out to be an own-goal for the economy and are generally quite short lived (example Italy).

 

[BurnitBlue]

I've been thinking about how laws have to be precise to close loopholes, like for instance yachts that are IN Greece, sailing, moored, anchored. Nothing about boats (like mine) that are approximately ON Greece and not touching any part of Greek soil or water because she is suspended in a steel cradle which belongs to the boat yard.

Am I clutching at straws?

 

[1bobt]

I've been thinking about how laws have to be precise to close loopholes, like for instance yachts that are IN Greece, sailing, moored, anchored. Nothing about boats (like mine) that are approximately ON Greece and not touching any part of Greek soil or water because she is suspended in a steel cradle which belongs to the boat yard.

Am I clutching at straws?

YES

 

[Nostrodamus]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm happy to pay a tax to cruise the waters of Greece because I recognise that the Greeks themselves (under the cosh of the troika as has been mentioned) are being taxed beyond the realms of reasonableness and I don't see why those of us sailing in Greek waters should be exempt from that pain. My problem is with the step change at 12m because it's patently unfair. I'd pay €500 or €600 a year for my 13.7m yacht, that is a reasonable tax, €1300 or possibly €1400, depending on the wording, is not.

As far as I understood it this is the basic fee.
You forgot to add on tax at between 17 and 20% to that figure. Then you have to add on some of the Marina taxes that are now being collected.
As much as we wanted to spend a year or more in Greek waters and would have paid a reasonable tax this is one we just can not afford.

 

[Tony Cross]

As far as I understood it this is the basic fee.
You forgot to add on tax at between 17 and 20% to that figure. Then you have to add on some of the Marina taxes that are now being collected.
As much as we wanted to spend a year or more in Greek waters and would have paid a reasonable tax this is one we just can not afford.

AFAIK there has been no mention of VAT being added to this tax in any of the documentation. Lets wait and see what actually happens before we start making things worse than they already are.

 

[Nostrodamus]

AFAIK there has been no mention of VAT being added to this tax in any of the documentation. Lets wait and see what actually happens before we start making things worse than they already are.

That is the trouble Tony, and I am sure it is worse for you being there, nobody really knows what is going to happen or the finer points. This is a tax that is supposed to be introduced next year. It may be that by the time it is implemented they could be looking to retrospectively charge you from the beginning of the year so many people could be hit with a large bill they may not be able to afford.
The time scale is just not feasible.
How is the marina reacting and have they heard anything more?

 

[Bertramdriver]

The Greeks around Lavrion are saying the the law won't happen because it is unworkable and uncollectable. Probably head in the sand stuff, but they are right and I fear that tourers face the prospect of the arbitrary rules being interpreted in different ways in different places, depending on the mood of the local port police. Just look at how harbour and DEKPA fees are collected.

 

[Nostrodamus]

The Greeks around Lavrion are saying the the law won't happen because it is unworkable and uncollectable. Probably head in the sand stuff, but they are right and I fear that tourers face the prospect of the arbitrary rules being interpreted in different ways in different places, depending on the mood of the local port police. Just look at how harbour and DEKPA fees are collected.

I tend to think you are right. It will be implemented in different ways in different parts of Greece. In some places they may not collect it whereas in other places they will be over officious. The trouble is, as a cruising sailor not knowing what is happening where, the the only option to avoid large fines is to pay it. I think the locals may well look at this differently. Then again most locals will be excluded anyway because of the size of their boats.
Isn't there anything in European law that would affect this ie freedom of movement... I don't know enough about European laws!
Wonder what would happen if they tried to introduce this in the UK

 

[Tony Cross]

That is the trouble Tony, and I am sure it is worse for you being there, nobody really knows what is going to happen or the finer points. This is a tax that is supposed to be introduced next year. It may be that by the time it is implemented they could be looking to retrospectively charge you from the beginning of the year so many people could be hit with a large bill they may not be able to afford.
The time scale is just not feasible.
How is the marina reacting and have they heard anything more?

Nobody I know has heard anything new (or admitted to it anyway).

The marina here is of course concerned, as is the chandlers outside. Both seem to think that there is little they or anyone else can do to change this tax. Both think that the Greek government doesn't really want the tax and that they (the government) knows it will impact the marinas and associated sectors but they're doing what the troika tells them because that's the only way to get the next bailout payment. Both seem to think there's a fair chance of it not being implemented fully or at all and I tend to agree. The Greek government has a recent history of passing laws that the troika require and then failing to implement them properly, this one may go the same way.

Sadly this does make it near impossible to know what the situation will be next year, so it's equally impossible for potential visitors (like you) to know what they are likely to be asked to pay, if anything. That's why I keep telling people to wait and see, there really is nothing else we can sensibly do. My personal advice would be for potential (and existing) visitors to assume that they will have to pay the tax as currently understood (personally I doubt it will also attract VAT, none of the other new taxes have) and plan accordingly.

I understand that it's fun to speculate and for those not in Greece to yank a few chains and see who bites, but the reality is that we just don't know. All we have at the moment (AFAIK) is a loosely worded draft law that has apparently been voted through, but in Greece that's far from being the end of the story.

Watch this space....

 

[jimbaerselman]

The Cruising Association (CA) is paying for an accurate translation of the law as published. They will then compile a list of clarifications needed in order to understand how the law will be applied (assuming it is gazetted). The posts made on this forum, and discussions with members at 2 meetings in CA house have been most useful in compiling this list. They include:

1. Does time out of water need a receipt (probably not)
2. What's the exact calculation of >12m tax (will 13.7 metre boat pay €1,370 tax, discounted by 30%)
3. What are conditions for 30% discount (will pre-payment for a year before 1 Jan gain the discount, or will any payment for the full year be suitable)
4. Will there be concessions for boats already in Greece which wish to leave as a result of the tax (nothing ventured . . )

And, obviously, when will the tax be gazetted.

Please, give us proposals to add to that list through this forum.

We will, of course, be looking closely at this law, and any answers, to see how this relates to various EU directives. This will be at the amateur level at first. Professional advice is big budget stuff . . . 100 new CA membership fees would pay for that.

Anyone can follow progress through the "News" tab on http://www.cruising.org.uk , which we'll keep up to date as information flows in

Or, just in case, are there any EU law experts on MoT out there prepared to do some pro bono work for sailors? If so, please contact me through my web site, below.

 

[Bertramdriver]

Add to the list
If the tax applies only to boats physically in the water, will it be only charged on a fixed weekly rate or an annual rate.
Ie 6 months afloat / six months on land = 50% discount.
Yes I know its opportunistic but it's exactly the kind of solution that a pragmatic port police administrator would come up with to keep everyone happy.

 

[Tony Cross]

Jim,

The draft law on the public CA website says that the 30% discount is available to yachts "permanently based" in Greece. Obviously a 12-month marina contract is what they're thinking of, but I'd be more interested to know whether a yacht that spends the whole year in Greece but without a 12-month marina contact also qualifies as "permanently based"? And if so, how does one prove that? Also how can you get the 30% discount up front for the year ahead? They're hardly likely to accept a promise not to leave Greece in the next 12 months!

I realise that only a small percentage of (mostly liveaboard) yachts don't have 12-month contracts, but for those of us who will be itinerant but "permanently based" in Greece (at least for the year ahead) it would seem unfair not to allow us the discount.

BTW. I don't hold out much hope......

 

[Nostrodamus]

I would like to know how I will be charged... 13.5m but the chances are we would not get into Greek waters until June and may well leave by September. Would I still have to pay the full tax.
Also what about yachts just going in Greek waters for a day or two or just passing through.
Thanks Jim for all the work you are doing.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Receipts from a cafe or ATM etc only prove where a person is, not his boat. The ships LOG BOOK is as far as I know an official document describing the boats wherabouts and such things.

For many years I have maintained two log books. A sailing log book and a virtual log book which has been successful in Cyprus, USA, and various Caribbean countries.

When asked how long I have been in the country, I put on a pleasant and charming grin and say that I have forgotton the day I arrived so get out the log book, flip back a few pages and say the virtual date and time plus the wind speed and sea state. The officer can and sometimes does read it for himself. To be honest I have only used it in Cyprus once and in Spain before EU. I think I also used it in a caribbean country (can't recall which one).

There is nothing to prevent a skipper today from saying he has just arrived and on his way to the nearest tax point if his log book backs him up. As a get out of gaol card the virtual log book can be marked as SWMBO's diary. Ooops, sorry officer, wrong book.

The virtual log book is a pain to keep track of virtual cruises so I don't think I would use it for tax evasion. BUT ... if the fine is ONLY 100% then I reckon the risk of sneaking around without paying is a cheap economic risk.

No I am not a crook, I just resent the everyday interference on the last freedom of the human species.

 

[nimbusgb]

The Cruising Association (CA) is paying for an accurate translation of the law as published. They will then compile a list of clarifications needed in order to understand how the law will be applied (assuming it is gazetted). The posts made on this forum, and discussions with members at 2 meetings in CA house have been most useful in compiling this list. They include:

1. Does time out of water need a receipt (probably not)
2. What's the exact calculation of >12m tax (will 13.7 metre boat pay €1,370 tax, discounted by 30%)
3. What are conditions for 30% discount (will pre-payment for a year before 1 Jan gain the discount, or will any payment for the full year be suitable)
4. Will there be concessions for boats already in Greece which wish to leave as a result of the tax (nothing ventured . . )

And, obviously, when will the tax be gazetted.

Please, give us proposals to add to that list through this forum.

We will, of course, be looking closely at this law, and any answers, to see how this relates to various EU directives. This will be at the amateur level at first. Professional advice is big budget stuff . . . 100 new CA membership fees would pay for that.

Anyone can follow progress through the "News" tab on http://www.cruising.org.uk , which we'll keep up to date as information flows in

Or, just in case, are there any EU law experts on MoT out there prepared to do some pro bono work for sailors? If so, please contact me through my web site, below.

Jim, whilst we appreciate the efforts please see if you can get the question raised about monthly payments for all rather than just the >12m lot.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Jim,

The draft law on the public CA website says that the 30% discount is available to yachts "permanently based" in Greece. Obviously a 12-month marina contract is what they're thinking of, but I'd be more interested to know whether a yacht that spends the whole year in Greece but without a 12-month marina contact also qualifies as "permanently based"? And if so, how does one prove that? Also how can you get the 30% discount up front for the year ahead? They're hardly likely to accept a promise not to leave Greece in the next 12 months!

I realise that only a small percentage of (mostly liveaboard) yachts don't have 12-month contracts, but for those of us who will be itinerant but "permanently based" in Greece (at least for the year ahead) it would seem unfair not to allow us the discount.

BTW. I don't hold out much hope......

Tony, I really think that the proof requirement that you are in Greece for a year is just not relevant.

The greeks are offering an annual payment discount of 30% to be applied to their annual charge. This improves cash flow and collection costs - good commercial reasons. They are not going to argue with anyone who therefore pays in advance. It would be utterly ridiculous to discuss later in the year whether or not they were actually there all year. Just think of the cost!

It is also impossible for anyone to prove what they will be doing in the future unless of course you travel at the speed of light- and frankly does it matter? - they have got your money - and thats the point (I think! but who know the greek mind)

 

[BurnitBlue]

Jim, whilst we appreciate the efforts please see if you can get the question raised about monthly payments for all rather than just the >12m lot.

Give it up. The tax will be dated and paid from 1st Jan of current year as it stands at the mo. You are assuming that time on the hard will not be counted. Dream on.

If you think that your boat will be in Greece for eleven month and you only pay for the one month you actually use it you are wrong. As Jim has said on at least two occasions a yacht is MoT same as a car. Jack your car up on bricks when you don't use it and see if the Road tax folk are impressed.

EDIT The 12 m monthly thing is for boats that have just arrived, not for those who wintered in Greece. I repeat, that for what I have read, if a 12 meter boat has been in Greece since January or later then the monthly payment does not apply.

 

[BurnitBlue]

EDIT The 12 m monthly thing is for boats that have just arrived, not for those who wintered in Greece. I repeat, that for what I have read, if a 12 meter boat has been in Greece since January or later then the monthly payment does not apply.

Talking to myself again but to make it clear, the Greeks are a fair minded people and realise that for a boat to arrive in August for a months holiday it would be unfair to expect them to pay from 1st January when their boat was not even in Greece. Less than 12m they think would be hardly worth the hassle for 200 to 400 euro so they must pay from 1st January. Not quite fair I agree but the cost of a smaller boat could already have been factored in. However it is early days. Visiting boats less than 12 meters may still get the consession.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Add to the list
If the tax applies only to boats physically in the water, will it be only charged on a fixed weekly rate or an annual rate.
Ie 6 months afloat / six months on land = 50% discount.
Yes I know its opportunistic but it's exactly the kind of solution that a pragmatic port police administrator would come up with to keep everyone happy.

Thanks.

This is achieved through the monthly rate for those over 12m. Smaller boats aren't covered by this option, so the point by nimbusgb is relevant. Another question then will be: "calendar month, or a month from payment"

Tony, yes. My opinion is that pre-payment (before launch, or immediately on arrival) could be proposed as a condition for 30% discount. I suspect the monthly option may be the better route for those who go home.

Nostro, you have the option for monthly payments. Smile. €135 a month = €4.50 a day - if its a 30 day carnet. Different if it's calender months. Transits with just a couple of stops are a risk assessment. I doubt if anyone is going to ask for receipts in Levitha or Arki, but Naxos or Ermoupolic are another matter! You've only got an extra €135 at risk . . . Burnit's point.

I can see we'll have to divide these ideas into points for clarification, and points for negotiation.

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony, I really think that the proof requirement that you are in Greece for a year is just not relevant.

The greeks are offering an annual payment discount of 30% to be applied to their annual charge. This improves cash flow and collection costs - good commercial reasons. They are not going to argue with anyone who therefore pays in advance. It would be utterly ridiculous to discuss later in the year whether or not they were actually there all year. Just think of the cost!

It is also impossible for anyone to prove what they will be doing in the future unless of course you travel at the speed of light- and frankly does it matter? - they have got your money - and thats the point (I think! but who know the greek mind)

I love lateral thinking. I simply hadn't considered that the 30% discount might simply be for paying for a year in advance. I hope you're right, thanks!