New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Nostrodamus]

I also makes financial sense for us not to winter in Greece and spend our money there. Sail there for a month or two and then go back to where the monthly marina costs are less than the tax I would pay that month in Greece.
Perfect economic sense for the Greeks !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[charles_reed]

Give it up. The tax will be dated and paid from 1st Jan of current year as it stands at the mo. You are assuming that time on the hard will not be counted. Dream on.

If you think that your boat will be in Greece for eleven month and you only pay for the one month you actually use it you are wrong. As Jim has said on at least two occasions a yacht is MoT same as a car. Jack your car up on bricks when you don't use it and see if the Road tax folk are impressed.

EDIT The 12 m monthly thing is for boats that have just arrived, not for those who wintered in Greece. I repeat, that for what I have read, if a 12 meter boat has been in Greece since January or later then the monthly payment does not apply.

Dangerous comparison with Road Tax - there is a thing called a SORN. You don't even have to use any bricks!!

 

[Retired in Crete]

The draft law on the public CA website says that the 30% discount is available to yachts "permanently based" in Greece. Obviously a 12-month marina contract is what they're thinking of...........................I realise that only a small percentage of (mostly liveaboard) yachts don't have 12-month contracts, but for those of us who will be itinerant but "permanently based" in Greece (at least for the year ahead) it would seem unfair not to allow us the discount.

NO, NO, NO! You boat will be permanently based in Greece but you will not be!!

I have no wish to spread alarm and despondency but your statement could be opening a whole new can of worms!

If you are “permanently based” in Greece for longer than 3 months then firstly you need a residents permit. OK it is not difficult to obtain, a couple of visits (plus the customary waiting time) to the local police station with 3 passport photographs, five Euros and your passport and, under EU law, they cannot refuse you one.

Spend more than 6 months in Greece and, strictly speaking, you become tax resident here (there?) and liable for Greek income tax and you will need to prove (with “pink slips” from a bank) that you have imported enough money to sustain yourself for the tax year. If you cannot do this they will assume that you must have worked and tax you accordingly. Believe me, you do not want to be a Greek tax payer.

The Greek government is desperate for cash and taxing as many as possible . Please be careful who you tell that you are “permanently based here”.

Just my advice.

John

 

[dutch123]

i have trawled through quite a few pages but couldn't find what would apply to a 35ft cat moored in greek marinas, any info would be appreciated/tia..

 

[jimbaerselman]

NO, NO, NO! You boat will be permanently based in Greece but you will not be!!

I have no wish to spread alarm and despondency but your statement could be opening a whole new can of worms!

If you are “permanently based” in Greece for longer than 3 months then firstly you need a residents permit. OK it is not difficult to obtain, a couple of visits (plus the customary waiting time) to the local police station with 3 passport photographs, five Euros and your passport and, under EU law, they cannot refuse you one.

Spend more than 6 months in Greece and, strictly speaking, you become tax resident here (there?) and liable for Greek income tax and you will need to prove (with “pink slips” from a bank) that you have imported enough money to sustain yourself for the tax year. If you cannot do this they will assume that you must have worked and tax you accordingly. Believe me, you do not want to be a Greek tax payer.

The Greek government is desperate for cash and taxing as many as possible . Please be careful who you tell that you are “permanently based here”.

Just my advice.

John

+ 1 ; sound advice. CA will be arguing that pre-payment be the sole criterion (thanks Chris!)

 

[IanStreten]

We currently have a 11.88mtr. motor yacht ashore in Cleopatra marina Preveza. Our intention is to stay in Greece for an other year but as a retired couple with just a state pension. Any extra costs will cause us a lot of concern. I have read somewhere that this tax may not apply to certain motor vessels. If this is the case, does anybody have any further details on this?

 

[Tony Cross]

NO, NO, NO! You boat will be permanently based in Greece but you will not be!!

I have no wish to spread alarm and despondency but your statement could be opening a whole new can of worms!

If you are “permanently based” in Greece for longer than 3 months then firstly you need a residents permit. OK it is not difficult to obtain, a couple of visits (plus the customary waiting time) to the local police station with 3 passport photographs, five Euros and your passport and, under EU law, they cannot refuse you one.

Spend more than 6 months in Greece and, strictly speaking, you become tax resident here (there?) and liable for Greek income tax and you will need to prove (with “pink slips” from a bank) that you have imported enough money to sustain yourself for the tax year. If you cannot do this they will assume that you must have worked and tax you accordingly. Believe me, you do not want to be a Greek tax payer.

The Greek government is desperate for cash and taxing as many as possible . Please be careful who you tell that you are “permanently based here”.

Just my advice.

John

Thank you for this but I think it's well understood that the proposed boat tax applies to the location of the boat not the people, so when I say "permanently based" in relation to this tax I am of course talking about the boat.

You are however wrong about a "residents permit" if you are here for more than 90 days. EU rules require all EU citizens spending more than 90 days in another EU country to register with the authorities, this has nothing at all to do with residency. SWMBO and I are registered as spending more than 90 days in Greece (and yes it was a tortuous process) and we have the appropriate registration documents, but that is not the same thing as a resident's permit. We are not resident in Greece. I also of course understand that if I spend more than 183 days a year in any EU country I automatically become a tax resident of that country (but again that's also not the same as being resident there).

The distinction between my tax status and the (potential) tax status of the boat is clear and I think well understood. I apologise for not making it clear in my previous post that I was talking about the boat being itinerant but "permanently based" here.

 

[Retired in Crete]

"EU nationals have the right to live and work in Greece without a work permit, however EU nationals
staying longer than 3 months are required to obtain a Residence Certificate.
Residence Certificate
The Residence Permit (Adeia Diamonis / Adeia Paramonis) has been replaced by the Residence
Certificate for EU Nationals.
Community legislation provides that every European Union citizen has the right to reside in the host
Member State for a period of up to three months with the only requirement to hold a valid identity
card or passport.
EU nationals also have the right to reside in Greece (or any EU Member State) for more than three
months in which case they must obtain a Residence Certificate, which is subject to the following
conditions:

• You have comprehensive sickness insurance cover there; and
• You have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system during
the residence."

Full details here:
http://www.livingincrete.net/ResidencePermit.html

John

 

[Seven Spades]

EU nationals also have the right to reside in Greece (or any EU Member State) for more than three
months in which case they must obtain a Residence Certificate, which is subject to the following
conditions:

• You have comprehensive sickness insurance cover there; and
• You have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system during
the residence."

Full details here:
http://www.livingincrete.net/ResidencePermit.html

John

That's a bit odd because we are told that any EU citizen can turn up here (GB) and claim benefits as though there were a resident.

My guess is that this will become a monthly cruising charge for all sizes of vessel and that most people will pay it. Marinas will have to cut their fees to keep there resident boats and some charter companies will close if they cannot absorb this tax charge in their boats. The biggest loss will be boat that are passing through and day sails.The problem I have is that it is like import duties, if we all impose import duties goods stop flowing, and if all EU con tries start imposing these charges all boats will just stay in their home location, which would be rather sad.

 

[Nostrodamus]

My guess is that this will become a monthly cruising charge for all sizes of vessel and that most people will pay it. .

I know of numerous boats here in Italy that were planning on going to Greece next year to stay the year. As it stands at the moment most of them are over 12 m and therefore do not want or cannot afford to pay a yearly tax for several months sailing. They were also planning to winter there but what is the point when two days sail away are marinas that are cheaper and there is no "cruising tax".
There is also a contingent of us planning to go to Tunisia rather than Greece for a haul out and anti foul. Between us that is a fair bit of money but it won't put a dint in the economy one way or the other.

 

[Tony Cross]

"EU nationals have the right to live and work in Greece without a work permit, however EU nationals
staying longer than 3 months are required to obtain a Residence Certificate.
Residence Certificate
The Residence Permit (Adeia Diamonis / Adeia Paramonis) has been replaced by the Residence
Certificate for EU Nationals.
Community legislation provides that every European Union citizen has the right to reside in the host
Member State for a period of up to three months with the only requirement to hold a valid identity
card or passport.
EU nationals also have the right to reside in Greece (or any EU Member State) for more than three
months in which case they must obtain a Residence Certificate, which is subject to the following
conditions:

• You have comprehensive sickness insurance cover there; and
• You have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the social assistance system during
the residence."

Full details here:
http://www.livingincrete.net/ResidencePermit.html

John

Ok, it seems that either Greece (or more likely the Living In Crete website) are using different terminology to the EU. The EU talks about registration and residence, the LIC website talks about a residence permit (what the EU calls registration) and a permanent residence certificate (what the EU calls residence).

 

[Sybaris]

Will we pay port dues?- I doubt it. I don't think I will be visiting port police ever again. I am not a registered charity and don't propose to start, especially with undeserving cases.

Hmmm, since when is it considered a charity to pay for something you use? In my opinion, every time you "choose" not to pay port dues you are only taking advantage of the Greek's honesty and good faith.

To pre-empt comments about honesty here I can only talk for myself, but I can truly say that I very rarely feel cheated in Greece.

To get some perspective here. Remind me again of the energy companies in the UK, or the banks, or how about the London congestion charge (does that not stop free movement), or the supermarket monopoly selling meat pumped with water, etc, etc, etc. Oh yes I forgot, most of that is ok because it is only done in order to maximise profits for the shareholders, which must be considered the holy grail and the main purpose of our life here on earth (sarcasm warning).

Cheers,
Per

 

[BurnitBlue]

Ok, it seems that either Greece (or more likely the Living In Crete website) are using different terminology to the EU. The EU talks about registration and residence, the LIC website talks about a residence permit (what the EU calls registration) and a permanent residence certificate (what the EU calls residence).

And for those of us who speak english ....... ?

 

[jimbaerselman]

And for those of us who speak english ....... ?

I've tried to simplify all this stuff on http://www.jimbsail.info/going-foreign/time-abroad, but it's very difficult to translate EU speak. Sadly once you understand the EU speak, you then discover that the legislators in each country interpret it slightly differently from each other. And then the officials in each country are trained to different stadards, and interpret their own regulations differently from each other.

So, expect the unexpected . . .

Most important of all, as Tony hinted, look very closely at the implications of tax residence in Greece if you (personally) spend a lot of time in the country. Implementation of this tax will raise questions about how much time you spend in Greece. The implications of tax residence may be more expensive that this tax for some.

The Cruising Association (CA) now has a decent translation of the law as presented to parliament. It's not yet gazetted. The news item on http://www.cruising.org.uk/home has been updated as a result of further advice received.

 

[miyagimoon]

The Cruising Association (CA) now has a decent translation of the law as presented to parliament. It's not yet gazetted. The news item on http://www.cruising.org.uk/home has been updated as a result of further advice received.

Jim

Thanks for that. But as per usual it opens up more questions. So I'll start:

The Page is entitled "New Greek Cruising Tax", emphasis on word "TAX". Within the text it is referred to as a "Staying Fee", emphasis on word "FEE".

Is it a tax or a fee. If it is a "FEE" then will it not be subject to VAT?

My yacht is at present hauled out obviously on land. We all assume (needs to be clarified) that whilst on land i.e. Not Sailing, Not Anchored and Not Moored this Tax / Fee is not applicable.

If I launch and proceed straight out of Greece I assume (again needs to be clarified) that I will not be subject to this Tax / Fee.


Albert

 

[Chris_Robb]

Jim

Thanks for that. But as per usual it opens up more questions. So I'll start:

The Page is entitled "New Greek Cruising Tax", emphasis on word "TAX". Within the text it is referred to as a "Staying Fee", emphasis on word "FEE".

Is it a tax or a fee. If it is a "FEE" then will it not be subject to VAT?

My yacht is at present hauled out obviously on land. We all assume (needs to be clarified) that whilst on land i.e. Not Sailing, Not Anchored and Not Moored this Tax / Fee is not applicable.

If I launch and proceed straight out of Greece I assume (again needs to be clarified) that I will not be subject to this Tax / Fee.


Albert

Albert - the other question not answered is:

Is the Tax/Fee charged whether or not you are in or out of the water. This will have significant impact on how we leave our boats as I saile for 2 months early summer and 1 month late summer. At present we are 365 days in the water. The initial wording was "in Greek Water" which I think was taken by most to read - "in the water".

 

[Sandyman]

Albert - the other question not answered is:

Is the Tax/Fee charged whether or not you are in or out of the water. This will have significant impact on how we leave our boats as I saile for 2 months early summer and 1 month late summer. At present we are 365 days in the water. The initial wording was "in Greek Water" which I think was taken by most to read - "in the water".

Not the way I read it. Seems to me that if your boat is in Greece you pay. They are skint so it's a catch-all tax/fee.

 

[pmyatt]

Jim

Thanks for that. But as per usual it opens up more questions. So I'll start:

The Page is entitled "New Greek Cruising Tax", emphasis on word "TAX". Within the text it is referred to as a "Staying Fee", emphasis on word "FEE".

Is it a tax or a fee. If it is a "FEE" then will it not be subject to VAT?

My yacht is at present hauled out obviously on land. We all assume (needs to be clarified) that whilst on land i.e. Not Sailing, Not Anchored and Not Moored this Tax / Fee is not applicable.

If I launch and proceed straight out of Greece I assume (again needs to be clarified) that I will not be subject to this Tax / Fee.


Albert

If you launch and proceed straight out of Greek waters, unless you do a moonlight flit and don't go anywhere near the Port Authorities, I would expect you to be charged because you are "in" Greek Waters. At least, that is what I am anticipating when I launch next year.

 

[Bertramdriver]

In the face of experience I am expecting that when I go to get my DEKPA endorsed at the port office on the island in May, I will be told that I have to pay a tax. There will ensue a long discussion about where I keep the boat and for how long, the size of the engines, who services them etc etc. Then after a drag on the fag the interpretation and amount will boil down to the port police person's understanding of what they are supposed to charge and the weather outside, and whether he/ she is a friend of the mechanic I use or the boatyard owner. This indulgence in Northern European tax compliance is almost anal. The Greeks are going to be Greek and this tax will be just as chaotic as every other charge/fee/tax we run into.

 

[nimbusgb]

In the face of experience I am expecting that when I go to get my DEKPA endorsed at the port office on the island in May, I will be told that I have to pay a tax. There will ensue a long discussion about where I keep the boat and for how long, the size of the engines, who services them etc etc. Then after a drag on the fag the interpretation and amount will boil down to the port police person's understanding of what they are supposed to charge and the weather outside, and whether he/ she is a friend of the mechanic I use or the boatyard owner. This indulgence in Northern European tax compliance is almost anal. The Greeks are going to be Greek and this tax will be just as chaotic as every other charge/fee/tax we run into.

So don't go to the port office for the DEKPA stamp.