New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Nostrodamus]

Do you think Germany would be doing this if there was nothing in it for them?
This is just domination by stealth.
You say the Greeks cannot change their ways as it is inbred.
I suggest the same can be said for other countries too.
Talking to an Irish friend they thought it was funny that they spent all their money only for the stupid British and EU to come and give them more.

 

[Tony Cross]

Ok yeah!, now I understand. Of course it should be up to each individual to decide when they should start paying their taxes based upon their individual understanding of how corrupt or messed up the current system is. It should have been apparent to me that the best solution to this is for no one to pay their taxes until the corruption has been removed. Sarcasm warning again.

The problem with this is that corruption and cronyism is endemic in Greece. Look at the daily news and see how many ex-politicians are now being prosecuted for embezzling funds, and they're just the tip of the iceberg. Greek people avoid taxes for two reasons I think; firstly because it's so easy to do in the Greek system, and secondly because the taxes they do pay disappear into the black hole of corruption.

The Troika have defined a number of benchmarks that have to be improved in this "corrupt" system, and as far as I can see things are moving in the right direction. I can only talk of the Dodecanesos when I observe that all merchants now have to give VAT receipts, and if they don't the clients have a right to get their money back. This is a good start, and there are many other such corrections being implemented that we don't see on the surface. Greece's credit rating was raised last week Friday, again a good sign.

What you see, and what's happening nationally, is just papering over the cracks. The real funding problem in Greece is the massively overmanned, idle, mismanaged and corrupt public sector. The Greek government has consistently wriggled and avoided any moves the troika have made to reduce the size and improve the efficiency of the public sector. What happened to the 12,000 who were supposed to have been sacked last September for example? People get jobs in the public sector because they are friends of friends, not because they are good at what the do. Did you know for example that until very recently unmarried daughters of a retired public sector employee continued to receive his pension when he died (legally)?

Issuing VAT receipts happens here on Crete too, usually only when they know there are inspectors around. It's also far from universal and in places where we are well known we rarely get receipts. And no, we don't ask for them either, what's the point of annoying the people we depend on?

The ratings agency changes are their reacting to EU rule changes that will limit their ability to make ratings changes to a pre-set calendar. This is part of the EU's ongoing battle with these agencies and the effect they have on the EUro. (See http://www.euractiv.com/euro-finance/eu-threatens-action-credit-ratin-news-532087). The latest ratings changes are simply the agencies getting their changes in before these new rules take effect.

There will always be optimists and pessimists trying to forecast the future. Personally I feel Greece is moving in the right direction in many areas and am very optimistic. It will however not happen overnight. Having said that I totally disagree with those that argue the solution is to get out of the Euro and EU. That is to give up when you are almost there and would not be a long term benefit for anyone.

Almost there? The gulf between the economic attitude, culture and politics of Greece (indeed most southern European nations) and the richer northern European countries has never been wider nor more obvious. Poor Greeks are being driven into abject poverty, the middle classes (who generally do pay their taxes) are bearing the brunt of most of the new taxes, whilst the rich (who can afford expensive tax lawyers) are still getting away without paying. The public sector is still overmanned and utterly useless. Unions here wield the same power they did in Britain in the 1970's, probably more so, and the Communist Party here, whilst small, is vociferous and active, much more so these days. The second most popular political party (SYRIZA) is, frankly, only a fraction to the right of the communists. On the other side Golden Dawn are still widely supported as the party of the poor (well, the ethnic Greek poor I should say). Were there an election now it is quite likely that SYRIZA would wield real power in a government with strong Golden Dawn representation, then all bets really would be off. Does that sound like it's "almost there" to you?

My main problem with your line of arguing is how you are going to judge when the system is good enough for you to pay your taxes and fees due, and if everyone follows your example how can a solution ever be found.

Per

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I have no problem paying taxes. However, the taxation system here is shambolic and skewed. As I said, the law-abiding, tax-paying, middle class is bearing the brunt whilst the poor are destitute. For example, a 13-year old girl died of carbon monoxide poisoning yesterday in Thessaloniki from a home-built stove, they had no electricity. (See http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_02/12/2013_530381). It's not the payment of taxes that's the main problem, it's how they are spent. As long as the government and public sector in Greece are a bottomless pit where money is concerned people have a real incentive not to pay their tax. Until and unless they fix the public sector Greece is not going to recover.

 

[grumpygit]

Do you think Germany would be doing this if there was nothing in it for them?
This is just domination by stealth.
You say the Greeks cannot change their ways as it is inbred.
I suggest the same can be said for other countries too.
Talking to an Irish friend they thought it was funny that they spent all their money only for the stupid British and EU to come and give them more.

You are probably right with these assumptions.
What's in it for the Germans apart from stealth . . . . One of the main is that if they came out the € and went back to the Dmark there currency would be that strong that their exports would diminish over night with France as a close second.
About 80% of the EU/IMF hand outs to Greece goes straight back to the German Franco banks to make damn sure their not losing out.
The Greeks took 4000 years to get like this and they ain't going to change over night, it will take a few generations.
Yes the Irish did have a great time on entry to the € and spent a lot of it buying properties and properties to let in the UK. For them it was akin to winning the lottery but with no idea how to manage their wealth, spend spend spend!!

Sybaris, As for articles on Euro in or out, sceptics or not. for every article for, I can find one against. It's all down to personal choice and beliefs.

Let us remember that federalism did not work for the USSR with a great iron fist so why should the political euro dream survive.

On a personal note I'm sort of in the middle of the road but if push came to shove I'm sure would vote for out. Apart from what we all realise is the problems here in Greece I believe they should not be in the € because it just can't carry on getting squeezed and squeezed. Most of their politicians are inept and beyond honesty and I'm sure things will change but very slowly.

As far as the boat tax, this may or may not happen we'll just have to see, nothing came of the last attempt. But it's still a great country/people/sailing and if we have to pay we will and if people don't . . . .move on. Moaning will not alter a thing apart from making all glum.

 

[Ravi]

Poor Greeks are being driven into abject poverty, the middle classes (who generally do pay their taxes) are bearing the brunt of most of the new taxes, whilst the rich (who can afford expensive tax lawyers) are still getting away without paying..

And that is different from Britain (or many other Western economies), how?

 

[Chris_Robb]

The problem with this is that corruption and cronyism is endemic in Greece. Look at the daily news and see how many ex-politicians are now being prosecuted for embezzling funds, and they're just the tip of the iceberg. Greek people avoid taxes for two reasons I think; firstly because it's so easy to do in the Greek system, and secondly because the taxes they do pay disappear into the black hole of corruption.



What you see, and what's happening nationally, is just papering over the cracks. The real funding problem in Greece is the massively overmanned, idle, mismanaged and corrupt public sector. The Greek government has consistently wriggled and avoided any moves the troika have made to reduce the size and improve the efficiency of the public sector. What happened to the 12,000 who were supposed to have been sacked last September for example? People get jobs in the public sector because they are friends of friends, not because they are good at what the do. Did you know for example that until very recently unmarried daughters of a retired public sector employee continued to receive his pension when he died (legally)?

Issuing VAT receipts happens here on Crete too, usually only when they know there are inspectors around. It's also far from universal and in places where we are well known we rarely get receipts. And no, we don't ask for them either, what's the point of annoying the people we depend on?

The ratings agency changes are their reacting to EU rule changes that will limit their ability to make ratings changes to a pre-set calendar. This is part of the EU's ongoing battle with these agencies and the effect they have on the EUro. (See http://www.euractiv.com/euro-finance/eu-threatens-action-credit-ratin-news-532087). The latest ratings changes are simply the agencies getting their changes in before these new rules take effect.



Almost there? The gulf between the economic attitude, culture and politics of Greece (indeed most southern European nations) and the richer northern European countries has never been wider nor more obvious. Poor Greeks are being driven into abject poverty, the middle classes (who generally do pay their taxes) are bearing the brunt of most of the new taxes, whilst the rich (who can afford expensive tax lawyers) are still getting away without paying. The public sector is still overmanned and utterly useless. Unions here wield the same power they did in Britain in the 1970's, probably more so, and the Communist Party here, whilst small, is vociferous and active, much more so these days. The second most popular political party (SYRIZA) is, frankly, only a fraction to the right of the communists. On the other side Golden Dawn are still widely supported as the party of the poor (well, the ethnic Greek poor I should say). Were there an election now it is quite likely that SYRIZA would wield real power in a government with strong Golden Dawn representation, then all bets really would be off. Does that sound like it's "almost there" to you?



I know this wasn't directed at me, but I have no problem paying taxes. However, the taxation system here is shambolic and skewed. As I said, the law-abiding, tax-paying, middle class is bearing the brunt whilst the poor are destitute. For example, a 13-year old girl died of carbon monoxide poisoning yesterday in Thessaloniki from a home-built stove, they had no electricity. (See http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_02/12/2013_530381). It's not the payment of taxes that's the main problem, it's how they are spent. As long as the government and public sector in Greece are a bottomless pit where money is concerned people have a real incentive not to pay their tax. Until and unless they fix the public sector Greece is not going to recover.

Tony - a really good summary of the state of play.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

The problem with this is that corruption and cronyism is endemic in Greece. Look at the daily news and see how many ex-politicians are now being prosecuted for embezzling funds, and they're just the tip of the iceberg. Greek people avoid taxes for two reasons I think; firstly because it's so easy to do in the Greek system, and secondly because the taxes they do pay disappear into the black hole of corruption.



What you see, and what's happening nationally, is just papering over the cracks. The real funding problem in Greece is the massively overmanned, idle, mismanaged and corrupt public sector. The Greek government has consistently wriggled and avoided any moves the troika have made to reduce the size and improve the efficiency of the public sector. What happened to the 12,000 who were supposed to have been sacked last September for example? People get jobs in the public sector because they are friends of friends, not because they are good at what the do. Did you know for example that until very recently unmarried daughters of a retired public sector employee continued to receive his pension when he died (legally)?

Issuing VAT receipts happens here on Crete too, usually only when they know there are inspectors around. It's also far from universal and in places where we are well known we rarely get receipts. And no, we don't ask for them either, what's the point of annoying the people we depend on?

The ratings agency changes are their reacting to EU rule changes that will limit their ability to make ratings changes to a pre-set calendar. This is part of the EU's ongoing battle with these agencies and the effect they have on the EUro. (See http://www.euractiv.com/euro-finance/eu-threatens-action-credit-ratin-news-532087). The latest ratings changes are simply the agencies getting their changes in before these new rules take effect.



Almost there? The gulf between the economic attitude, culture and politics of Greece (indeed most southern European nations) and the richer northern European countries has never been wider nor more obvious. Poor Greeks are being driven into abject poverty, the middle classes (who generally do pay their taxes) are bearing the brunt of most of the new taxes, whilst the rich (who can afford expensive tax lawyers) are still getting away without paying. The public sector is still overmanned and utterly useless. Unions here wield the same power they did in Britain in the 1970's, probably more so, and the Communist Party here, whilst small, is vociferous and active, much more so these days. The second most popular political party (SYRIZA) is, frankly, only a fraction to the right of the communists. On the other side Golden Dawn are still widely supported as the party of the poor (well, the ethnic Greek poor I should say). Were there an election now it is quite likely that SYRIZA would wield real power in a government with strong Golden Dawn representation, then all bets really would be off. Does that sound like it's "almost there" to you?



I know this wasn't directed at me, but I have no problem paying taxes. However, the taxation system here is shambolic and skewed. As I said, the law-abiding, tax-paying, middle class is bearing the brunt whilst the poor are destitute. For example, a 13-year old girl died of carbon monoxide poisoning yesterday in Thessaloniki from a home-built stove, they had no electricity. (See http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_02/12/2013_530381). It's not the payment of taxes that's the main problem, it's how they are spent. As long as the government and public sector in Greece are a bottomless pit where money is concerned people have a real incentive not to pay their tax. Until and unless they fix the public sector Greece is not going to recover.

Sad story about the little girl but remember that in Greece you pay your "Council Tax" as part of your electricity bill. A rediculous system.

 

[Ravi]

To any Greek people on here ....

I hope you realise that the xenophobic and insulting comments from some people on here don't reflect the views of most British people. Most Brits who visit, and live in, Greece are there because we respect your millennia of culture and feel affiliation with the Greek people and their way of life. While our economic problems are not as catastrophic as those of Greece, at this time, most of us remember that it is not too many years since Britain asked the IMF for multi billion pound bailout. Many people in Britain are struggling with our own austerity measures (while the megacorps pay no tax and the rich get richer). so we have sympathy for the plight of the average Greek person.

We have our own share of nepotistic corrupt politicians. Maybe it is just that ours have just learned that you can milk a cow everyday whereas your lot decided to skin the cow and eat it in one day, with no thought of tomorrow.

You must be offended and angered by the sweeping generalisations about the Greek people and downright nasty xenophobia of some of the posts. I hope that you realise that most people in Britain do have manners and we find the sneering rudeness of an ungrateful guest as offensive as you do.

It is a depressing feature of forums that they attract a minority of small people who mouth off, online, in an aggressive and insulting tone that they never would use, standing at a bar, since they know they would get a punch in the face.

 

[Bertramdriver]

A report in the Financial Times suggesting the Greece will have to default and possibly exit the euro within 3-4 years. I wish their politicians had the sense to do it sooner so they can start fixing their economy instead of wasting time fighting the Troika.

 

[Bertramdriver]

I totally agree. My boat is in Greece because of the friends I have made and a culture I respect and enjoy. If I have to pay more to do that then I will do .....until the cost goes beyond my means.

 

[Tony Cross]

To any Greek people on here ....

I hope you realise that the xenophobic and insulting comments from some people on here don't reflect the views of most British people. Most Brits who visit, and live in, Greece are there because we respect your millennia of culture and feel affiliation with the Greek people and their way of life. While our economic problems are not as catastrophic as those of Greece, at this time, most of us remember that it is not too many years since Britain asked the IMF for multi billion pound bailout. Many people in Britain are struggling with our own austerity measures (while the megacorps pay no tax and the rich get richer). so we have sympathy for the plight of the average Greek person.

We have our own share of nepotistic corrupt politicians. Maybe it is just that ours have just learned that you can milk a cow everyday whereas your lot decided to skin the cow and eat it in one day, with no thought of tomorrow.

You must be offended and angered by the sweeping generalisations about the Greek people and downright nasty xenophobia of some of the posts. I hope that you realise that most people in Britain do have manners and we find the sneering rudeness of an ungrateful guest as offensive as you do.

It is a depressing feature of forums that they attract a minority of small people who mouth off, online, in an aggressive and insulting tone that they never would use, standing at a bar, since they know they would get a punch in the face.

From today's Kathimerini newspaper

Greece most corrupt country in EU, Transparency International finds

Greece scored 40 out of 100 points on the corruption scale published by Berlin-based NGO Transparency International on Tuesday, putting the crisis-hit nation on a par with China, but showing that it has made some progress from last year when it scored 36 points.

The score of 40 also makes Greece the most corrupt nation in the European Union, far below the best-performing Denmark, which scored 91.

The ranking, which covers 177 countries, is based on expert opinions of public sector corruption on a scale from 0 (highly corrupt) to 100 (very clean).

Greece ranks in the 80th spot among the 177 countries, below Bulgaria, Senegal and Tunisia. It is on a par with China and just one spot up from Swaziland.

Seven of the 28 EU member states scored below 50. Spain dropped to 59, compared to 65 in 2012. Slovenia slipped by four points to 57. Germany also slipped one point from last year to a score of 78, though it still ranks in the top 12.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_03/12/2013_530472

 

[Bertramdriver]

From today's Kathimerini newspaper



http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_03/12/2013_530472

Tony, I fail to see why you are banging on about something we already know. Do you really believe that the Greeks should be disciplined into abject acceptance of our Northern European norms through starvation and abuse. The big failures lie equally with the Euro Federalists who fed the Greek government with inexcusable amounts of cash, and the Greek politicians who used that cash (as per their normal political process) to buy votes and line their pockets. So please stop rubbing our faces in your simplistic beliefs and try and offer some original thought as to how we can all afford to keep our boats in Greek waters.

 

[Retired in Crete]

And that is different from Britain (or many other Western economies), how?

You make the assumption that benefits in Greece are the same as the rest of Europe. They are not.

Simple example. SWMBO has been unemployed for nearly 3 years and gets no benefits. (They ceased after 6 months.) Despite having no income she received a tax bill for 360 Euros for last year accompanied with a threat to convescate her apartment (her only asset) if it was not paid. This was based on the fact that she is still alive and could not have existed on nothing so therefor she must have worked! The fact that I have supported her is irrelevant as we are not married.

Her situation is far from unique. It is estimated that there are over 10,000 families now living on the streets of Athens as a result of this policy

John.

 

[Retired in Crete]

To any Greek people on here ....

I hope you realise that the xenophobic and insulting comments from some people on here don't reflect the views of most British people. Most Brits who visit, and live in, Greece are there because we respect your millennia of culture and feel affiliation with the Greek people and their way of life. While our economic problems are not as catastrophic as those of Greece, at this time, most of us remember that it is not too many years since Britain asked the IMF for multi billion pound bailout. Many people in Britain are struggling with our own austerity measures (while the megacorps pay no tax and the rich get richer). so we have sympathy for the plight of the average Greek person.

We have our own share of nepotistic corrupt politicians. Maybe it is just that ours have just learned that you can milk a cow everyday whereas your lot decided to skin the cow and eat it in one day, with no thought of tomorrow.

You must be offended and angered by the sweeping generalisations about the Greek people and downright nasty xenophobia of some of the posts. I hope that you realise that most people in Britain do have manners and we find the sneering rudeness of an ungrateful guest as offensive as you do.

It is a depressing feature of forums that they attract a minority of small people who mouth off, online, in an aggressive and insulting tone that they never would use, standing at a bar, since they know they would get a punch in the face.

Thank you for posting this. Totally agree. Well said.

John

 

[Steve C Cronin]

To any Greek people on here ....

I hope you realise that the xenophobic and insulting comments from some people on here don't reflect the views of most British people. Most Brits who visit, and live in, Greece are there because we respect your millennia of culture and feel affiliation with the Greek people and their way of life. While our economic problems are not as catastrophic as those of Greece, at this time, most of us remember that it is not too many years since Britain asked the IMF for multi billion pound bailout. Many people in Britain are struggling with our own austerity measures (while the megacorps pay no tax and the rich get richer). so we have sympathy for the plight of the average Greek person.

We have our own share of nepotistic corrupt politicians. Maybe it is just that ours have just learned that you can milk a cow everyday whereas your lot decided to skin the cow and eat it in one day, with no thought of tomorrow.

You must be offended and angered by the sweeping generalisations about the Greek people and downright nasty xenophobia of some of the posts. I hope that you realise that most people in Britain do have manners and we find the sneering rudeness of an ungrateful guest as offensive as you do.

It is a depressing feature of forums that they attract a minority of small people who mouth off, online, in an aggressive and insulting tone that they never would use, standing at a bar, since they know they would get a punch in the face.

Really? I get most of MY information direct from Greek friends who themselves openly criticise a lot of their fellow countrymen and most of their politicians. One of them is emigrating from Greece to live in Belarus because he thinks he will live a better life there and be able to run a farm without local officials interfering and demanding a cut every time he makes a move. Wouldn't by my choice but it is the only outside country he knows as his wife comes from there. They will be gone when I get back to Greece in the spring and good luck to them.

Oh & BTW, how do you get that criticising this tax is xenophobic? Since most of the 12metre+ craft attracting MUCH the larger taxes belong to foreigners, it is us who will pay far the most whilst the locals will get away with paying comparative peanuts on their generally smaller vessels. The locally owned VERY large yacht owners will have the resources to pay, anyway. NO;this is FLEECING YOUR VISITORS and a very poorly disguised attempt at that!

 

[grumpygit]

Tony, I fail to see why you are banging on about something we already know. Do you really believe that the Greeks should be disciplined into abject acceptance of our Northern European norms through starvation and abuse. The big failures lie equally with the Euro Federalists who fed the Greek government with inexcusable amounts of cash, and the Greek politicians who used that cash (as per their normal political process) to buy votes and line their pockets. So please stop rubbing our faces in your simplistic beliefs and try and offer some original thought as to how we can all afford to keep our boats in Greek waters.

The Greek majority like most other nationals get persecuted by the minority and no political system ever will be perfect, it's just some are better and fairer than others. Their plight should be embraced with sympathy and not ridicule. These are very difficult times for most of the populace here in Greece with all sorts of horror stories that we are all well aware of.
IF the Daily Mail can be believed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-qualify-state-benefit-set-aside-addicts.html

These are people in desperation with no alternative for survival but to use the system given to them.

And if/when the tax happens I think most of us will come to terms with it. As for keeping our boats in the water . . . we may have to not eat out as much or drink/smoke less or not at all, become a lot less likely to motor and stay out of ports.

Unfortunately sh*t happens and taxes never seem to be fair, for so many, just don't take it so personally.

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony, I fail to see why you are banging on about something we already know. Do you really believe that the Greeks should be disciplined into abject acceptance of our Northern European norms through starvation and abuse. The big failures lie equally with the Euro Federalists who fed the Greek government with inexcusable amounts of cash, and the Greek politicians who used that cash (as per their normal political process) to buy votes and line their pockets. So please stop rubbing our faces in your simplistic beliefs and try and offer some original thought as to how we can all afford to keep our boats in Greek waters.

Not talking about the problems in Greece will not make them go away. But since you asked so nicely I'll stop, for now.

 

[Sybaris]

To any Greek people on here ....

I hope you realise that the xenophobic and insulting comments from some people on here don't reflect the views of most British people. Most Brits who visit, and live in, Greece are there because we respect your millennia of culture and feel affiliation with the Greek people and their way of life. While our economic problems are not as catastrophic as those of Greece, at this time, most of us remember that it is not too many years since Britain asked the IMF for multi billion pound bailout. Many people in Britain are struggling with our own austerity measures (while the megacorps pay no tax and the rich get richer). so we have sympathy for the plight of the average Greek person.

We have our own share of nepotistic corrupt politicians. Maybe it is just that ours have just learned that you can milk a cow everyday whereas your lot decided to skin the cow and eat it in one day, with no thought of tomorrow.

You must be offended and angered by the sweeping generalisations about the Greek people and downright nasty xenophobia of some of the posts. I hope that you realise that most people in Britain do have manners and we find the sneering rudeness of an ungrateful guest as offensive as you do.

It is a depressing feature of forums that they attract a minority of small people who mouth off, online, in an aggressive and insulting tone that they never would use, standing at a bar, since they know they would get a punch in the face.

Spot on. There are a lot of rocks being thrown at glass houses in this thread.

 

[Carmel2]

We are in the 400 bracket. Now if we came over to Sicily in July and August and had to use one of the cheaper marinas like Licata for, let's say, tech problems, meeting some friends, changing crew etc, it's 54 Euros a night for us. So my basic maths tells me I have 7 nights at that price, as opposed to a fiver or nothing on a town quay in Greece............I think I will stay put, ta.

 

[BurnitBlue]

We are in the 400 bracket. Now if we came over to Sicily in July and August and had to use one of the cheaper marinas like Licata for, let's say, tech problems, meeting some friends, changing crew etc, it's 54 Euros a night for us. So my basic maths tells me I have 7 nights at that price, as opposed to a fiver or nothing on a town quay in Greece............I think I will stay put, ta.

My basic maths does not help me with the above. You pay 400 Brackets a year, or 54 Euros a night in Sicily, or five pounds sterling on a town quay in Greece.

Just ignore me.

 

[Chris_Robb]

We are in the 400 bracket. Now if we came over to Sicily in July and August and had to use one of the cheaper marinas like Licata for, let's say, tech problems, meeting some friends, changing crew etc, it's 54 Euros a night for us. So my basic maths tells me I have 7 nights at that price, as opposed to a fiver or nothing on a town quay in Greece............I think I will stay put, ta.

Official price for 1 night on town quay in Greece for 12 meters is around €26 - ie they should - by the book - charge 2 days..........