New build Sanlorenzo SL96A 2024

[jfm]

I think you're right. In addition to what you say:

1. These motors have standard flanges, so it's quite easy for a mechanic to fit a smaller motor if the original BCS motor failed.
2. The wire gauge: the incoming 12v +ve motor supply is 100% hidden in the shorter white corrugated tube, but you can bet it is a thick wire. (The black and red you can see on the right hand side are merely the supply to the solenoid coil). But the main 12v +ve to the motor is that OEM fitted red tail wire to the motor, and it's tiny. Perhaps 10 amps, so if this is a 12v boat that's 120 amps of motor. Belongs in a boy's train set. So tiny you don't even need a solenoid.

So, as well as everything you wrote, this also points to a conclusion that the motor is a retro fit and is too small. Worth checking Portofino, because if this is the cause of the defective steering you reported on YF a few months ago this would be a really nice fix/upgrade to your boat, and very easy to do.

Oh, and correct regarding Ackerman rudders - no boat driver could feel any effect at the speeds these boats do. So I don't hate Riva's decision here but I do prefer SL's preference for redundancy over Ackerman.

 

[Portofino]

Hang on chaps talk about 2+2 = 5 .The pair of you .
First the ram range and thus rudder movement is equal at the dock as at any speed right up to 38 knots .
I have tested it out .
So there’s sufficient pressure in the system .It ain’t low pressure or undersized anything.
The link I gave shows various sizes and a size guide inc SY s with bigger pumps .

Second as I reported the hull lifts and continues to lift as it speeds up particularly a second time up higher from 26 knot ish up .
Even on full rudder , full ram extension or intrusion ( dep on direction ) at SPEED theboats turning radius remarkably increases as if the blades are ineffective..Too small not deep enough or lifted up The drag slightly increases obviously reducing a few knots .

Could be air running down the transom mounts as well , but I understand this aeration theory applies if the blades are submerged.But as I said they arn’t much at speed .The whole thing is not an issue really just an observation.For tighter turns ( pots etc ) I use the sticks to throttle back a tad drop the hull and hey presto .The counter is arrow straight navigating, or put another way you don’t have to constantly fiddle with the helm at speed , it just sets on a bearing pretty undeterred by wake , waves etc .= relaxing cruising. Wether it’s designed in , deliberately or a by product of the hull excessive V and exaggerated dare I sat lifting strikes who knows ?

The motor is 24 V as is the whole boat btw ,i think 500 w looking at the link ?
The original if you recall ( MapishM is correct re replacement) burnt out on the 2014 del trip .The reason was a torn un water proof passerelle pad switch .Due to heavy weather it got drenched and sorted out a switch which allowed the motor to run on constantly .We we’re in a F 7 running parallel to the waves in the trough s or riding ridges of the peaks .Spray came in over the side glass as waves , white horses broke on the beam . We noticed the passerelle auto extended .Just too hairy to really move about unnecessarily tbh .

Tied up in safely Corsica.
Noticed this .


The replacement was sent by BCS .It does appear slightly shorter than the original 2001 version .
But as I said it moves the ram full range all speeds .It looks like they paint the whole unit after building it up .

While on redundancy.With theses electro hydraulic systems it defaults back to a kinda manual thingy .Just takes more turns to lock .Say from 4 to 10 without the motor .ie fo to turn it on at the panel .

The motor just runs quietly on demand you hear it with the engines off with flaps + passerelle. Obviously the engine noise masks it when running the boat .

 

[tico]

@jfm pedant mode.... Think you mean 120W ?

 

[colhel]

I think electric steering's a brilliant idea and as someone who's just bought all the kit to retrofit hydraulic steering and autohelm, wished I searched this out as an alternative!
I guess the principle is the same as the control on a cnc machine. The main difference however would be ball screws instead of lead screws and more commonly, belt driven rather than a gearbox

 

[billskip]

I think electric steering's a brilliant idea and as someone who's just bought all the kit to retrofit hydraulic steering and autohelm, wished I searched this out as an alternative!
I guess the principle is the same as the control on a cnc machine. The main difference however would be ball screws instead of lead screws and more commonly, belt driven rather than a gearbox

A tad ott for that rib init?

 

[colhel]

A tad ott for that rib init?

Compared to what?

 

[billskip]

@jfm pedant mode.... Think you mean 120W ?

But I think Porto cleared it up ..24v 500w...

 

[billskip]

Compared to what?

Your avatar...

 

[colhel]

Your avatar...

Oh I see! Yes I'm still trying to find a space for the fresh water flushing toilet

 

[MapisM]

The replacement was sent by BCS .It does appear slightly shorter than the original 2001 version.
...
The motor just runs quietly on demand you hear it with the engines off with flaps + passerelle.

Two questions spring to mind:

1) did you witness the actual part shipment from BCS (Twin Disc actually, since they dismissed the BCS brand after takeover), or is that what whoever fitted the motor told you?
A few years ago, I got in touch directly with their chief of technical assistance for a random fault on the flaps gauge, and he confirmed me that they can still supply all their original, like for like parts...

2) am I right in understanding that Itama used that one and only power pack for power steering, passerelle and flaps?
I never came across sharing between steering and passerelle, but using it also for flaps is unusual squared!

Anyway. If you are sure that everything works as it should, who am I to argue?
We are happy with our BodgeFlow, you're happy with your BodgeSteer - nothing wrong with that!

 

[BartW]

that hydraulic pump in portos pic, is exactly the same like in Blue Angel, for the passerel only,

I can tell from each of those hoses leaving the pump, what it's function: (at least on my boat it is like that)
- passerel gate open - close
- passerel in - out
- passerel fold - unfold
- passerel up - down
3 of those functions have a pressure adjustment valve, clearly visible in the pic, the in - out function doesn't have such a regulater, is alway's at max press

I can NOT believe that in porto's boat the pump serves the hydraulic steering, let alone the flaps,, that electric motor is not up to permanent running during navigation.

 

[jrudge]

This is a build thread from JFM who left to forum for many years.

If has now been hijacked by one member who wishes to pursue his own agenda and detract from the thread topic.

The outcome of this is frankly inevitable.

If that member wishers to start his own thrilling thread about how his boat works then fine, but I can see no relevance at all to the build of a boat that is some 30 times the price and likely 10 times the internal volume or more.

 

[Portofino]

that hydraulic pump in portos pic, is exactly the same like in Blue Angel, for the passerel only,

I can tell from each of those hoses leaving the pump, what it's function: (at least on my boat it is like that)
- passerel gate open - close
- passerel in - out
- passerel fold - unfold
- passerel up - down
3 of those functions have a pressure adjustment valve, clearly visible in the pic, the in - out function doesn't have such a regulater, is alway's at max press

I can NOT believe that in porto's boat the pump serves the hydraulic steering, let alone the flaps,, that electric motor is not up to permanent running during navigation.

A better pic .
This is intriguing?



5 at the top ( of the pic ) 3 with regulator valves and two tucked under with no valves, nearest the motor .There could be another out of shot hidden on this side .
Three at the bottom ( of the pic ) without valves and one unused .
Eight numbers on the tower so presume 8 outlets ?

We know there’s two for each flap ram .Two hydraulic pipes + one flap indicator = those 3 in the pic .


There is a raymarine autopilot iirc at the time there were 3 pump sizes .It’s iirc the middle size located in the ER .It’s motor is pretty much the same dims as that one on the BCS unit .
@Bart they control , provide enough grunt to move the rudders …” tiny motors “ on AP s ??

If you see the link BCS ^ further up it contains todays ( Twin disc) diagrams , charts and explanations + sizing info .
They are either engine mounted pumps or these electro hydraulic units , or i guess you can have a combo for the 3 hydraulic functions in a pick n mix .Rudders , flaps , passerelle.
Id you read the link it says there’s a smaller sensor ram on the main ram .When you turn the wheel the pump at the helm slightly increases pressure and this secondary ram detects this and triggers the motor to power up the unit = pressure up the main steering ram ….something like that .
I think the bigger units for SY s use AC motors or multi phase as everything is obviously scaled up = but the same principle if I understand the TD link for BCS ?

So you can see once above a certain scale electric rams start making more sense for mostly the reasons JFM outlined in his introductory post on this particular aspect .
The only caveat is the electrotwackery/ gobblygook programming and the system potentially throwing error codes .JFM did invite comments , all “ fears “ etc.

@ J rudge - to answer properly , shoot the breeze on new tech PAS imho you need to understand where you are starting from tech wise warts + all .Only then can one properly access the new tech .

I just fortunately happen to have a few pics to brighten up the topic .I can’t help if it’s my boat .
The pics could be any Italian boat as MapishM kindly pointed out .

Oh incase JRudge missed it iam not a Luddite and think its a great system ….just progress another example nice to “ do it “ so to speak .

There will be a lot of readers on this thread ( me inc ) who will learn a great deal on this thread covering stuff .
Don’t assume they have the same baseline knowledge as you JRudge .

 

[Portofino]

Two questions spring to mind:

1) did you witness the actual part shipment from BCS (Twin Disc actually, since they dismissed the BCS brand after takeover), or is that what whoever fitted the motor told you?
A few years ago, I got in touch directly with their chief of technical assistance for a random fault on the flaps gauge, and he confirmed me that they can still supply all their original, like for like parts...

2) am I right in understanding that Itama used that one and only power pack for power steering, passerelle and flaps?
I never came across sharing between steering and passerelle, but using it also for flaps is unusual squared!

Anyway. If you are sure that everything works as it should, who am I to argue?
We are happy with our BodgeFlow, you're happy with your BodgeSteer - nothing wrong with that!

Politely answering.
1- Broker sent a engineer with the part to Corsica.It looks like a generic motor used on a lot of stuff .Off the shelf from acomponent supplier .2014 time scale .The pic above shows it fitted + with the solinoid bracket correct .Iirc one day I discovered the solinoid had dropped off .I cable tied it ….need to find the screws in the bilge .TBH totally forgot .Will put it on the to do list .

2- It seems so .I haven’t found another to date . There’s a added optional Raymarine AP ….which has a similar/ identical motor .
But that’s normally not turned on any how .

If you read the blurb I linked the motor never constantly runs anyhow it’s on demand for all 3 functions …..if I understand it ??

What have you got to run the 3 ?

 

[petem]

@Portofino can't you start a new thread about your steering? It's of zero relevance here.

 

[John100156]

Blimey I am well late following this thread having been fitting AC in the saloon on my boat in SCM. Already 14 pages long . It really is going to be one to watch and contribute to......

 

[Portofino]

@Portofino can't you start a new thread about your steering? It's of zero relevance here.

It did cross my mind but I was answering Q raised by JFM , MapishM, pair of them jumped in with the motor size = previous thread of my seemingly geeky steering woes .Not me Pete , and just now Bart .
Its genetic old school BCS …..I imagine what SL have moved away from ? wether motor mounted pump or these electro hydraulic units .
Apologetically my IT ( computer skills ) are insufficient to defeat the forum software shifting stuff .

As far a relevance I answered that in the bottom 1/2 of post # 273 aimed at JRudges comments .

You know base line , where it’s coming from to go to electric PAS in boats .

“ geek alert “ to quote JFM .Sure agree .

I think ignoring Q like MapishM s post #270 is a bit rude too .Aside from transferring that across to a new thread .

 

[henryf]

The Princess F55 has individual servo motors controlling each rudder. We have very easy access as the crew cabin is a storage so I can simply pull off a panel to access steering, swim platform hydraulic pump etc. You can center the rudders if required manually and then get home using engines / thrusters when close quarters.

Its still very early days into ownership and exploration of handling but in the case of the F55 the turning circle at speed is greater than the previous P50 Mk3. How much of that is down to the rudder set up? I suspect its more down to the hull design, the P50 really leans into turns and is almost on a knife edge when under way. The F55 is much more sedate and stable. Feel at the wheel is definitely less, the P50 had an electro hydraulic system at the lower helm and traditional manual hydraulic at the flybridge.

I was surprised to see the rudder set up during the F55 build but by the sound of it there are advantages.

 

[MapisM]

@Portofino can't you start a new thread about your steering? It's of zero relevance here.

I appreciate the last posts were way O/T, and I apologize for having contributed to that, sort of.
But I think we can give PF a bit of latitude - after all, build threads have always inspired sidetrack debates.
If nothing else, in this one there were some technical aspects worth discussing - which is more than can be said of many others!

The outcome of this is frankly inevitable.

If you're envisaging that jfm might consider disappearing again because of these O/Ts, I wouldn't be so pessimistic.
As some previous posts show, in spite of being able to buy and spec a not so small ship, he still enjoys a good old techy debate as most of us do, even if not referred to his own boat.
Besides, I'm sure his skin is more than thick enough...

That said, I think this particular O/T can be archived in the "done to death" category by now!

 

[jfm]

@jfm pedant mode.... Think you mean 120W ?

Yes indeed - typo. Hopefully it was apparent enough!