jfm
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It has 2 x AnCams in the spec, and 2x AnLights, to help when using AnCam at night
New build Sanlorenzo SL96A 2024
- Thread starter jfm
- Start date
jfm
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Yup to all that. Plenty of winter jobs you wouldn't immediately think of, like fixing covers, charging Seabobs, letting folks on board for servicing watermakers, airco, engines, generators, etc. Semco-ing all the teak. Taking 2 crew cars for service and making sure they are run every 2 weeks or so. Deep cleaning fridges, icemakers, ovens, showers. Loads of stuff really
Plus there is time off - in July/August crew can do long stints with no days off at all, so some amount of downtime on full pay in winter is only fair.
jfm
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Yup, 10 of the biggest Lumishores arrived at Sanlorenzo last week actually. 4 across transom, 3 along the aft part of each hull side. Lumishores also on Ribeye chase boat and Williams tender.Great build thread. Will we be seeing another suit of Lumishore's and a set of triple Kahlenberg's added to the list? Will you be letting the yard fit the Bodgeflow™©® system or is that still top secret and will be retro fitted? So many questions lol.
Only doing double Kahlenbergs - the same model I had on last boat = D-330. I would love to have bigger but I would then need a bigger air tank and compressor, and you begin to run out of room in engine room for all this stuff. The D-330s make a very decent sound
I think I will retrofit Bodgeflow™©® myself. I'd rather work out where to put the connections myself, for convenient operation, and I need to understand the implications of the centrifugal raw water pumps that MTU use on their engines. It's an easy DIY job.
jfm
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Porto why would that F40 have different number plates front and rear? 00:03 of the video, compared with 00:07. Or 08:02 compared with 08:14.
benjenbav
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I don’t think I’ll apply. Sounds too much like hard work.
Portofino
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The rear will be the official one .
You can ( owners via the factory ) apply to the reg plate authority Eg the DVLA in the U.K. for front plate exemption.
Citing body structure , aero or cooling issues . Certain Ferraris have this exemption inc the F40 , 458 + others .
Wether this exemption is / was EU wide spun out of Brussels and applies to D is another matter ? Probably if Ferrari have type approved it without a regulation spec front mounting plate fitting .Stick on ones are a no no in officialdom circles also .But doesn’t stop folks . Or stop folks putting AN other mark(s) on the front .
Thats the only explanation I can think ?
Most U.K. plod arn’t aware but don’t bother issuing “ grief “How ever best to carry the DLVA exemption letter in the glove box to re educate them if you get pulled .
Travelling down through A , F or CH with different front / rear marks is asking for plod grief imho .
Assuming they are as attentive as you .
.Back on topic
Thus far your boat thinking behind decisions makes perfect sense to me .No further Q s .
jfm
Well-known member
I thought I'd post on steering - geek alert
For years, boats have had hydraulic steering, but this boat will have electric steering. With hydraulic, each steering wheel operates a rotary pump, which sends oil down hoses to a hydraulic cylinder that moves the tillers. Additionally there is usually a small hydraulic pump on the back of one of the engines, to provide power assistance, and then also there is an electrically operated hydraulic pump with solenoid valves for the autopilot. So that's 4 pumps usually, and many metres of hose that has to be routed through the boat and kept full of oil and bled.
In the last few years several manufacturers have switched to electric steering, involving no hydraulics at all, and this SL96A will be built that way. Everything is a trade off and I think the pros/cons are these:
First picture below is a Sanlorenzo port side rudder (boat in build, not finished) showing the linear actuator operating the tiller. Second picture is a generic reminder of how these actuators work (DC electric motor, via reduction gears, turns a leadscrew). Third picture is the helm control unit that controls the haptics/feedback, lock-to-lock turns and other stuff.
The system used by Sanloronzo is Italian, made by Worldyachts (who also make hydraulic steering btw). Electric Steering.
Anyone got any love/hate/worries about this relatively new form of steering?
For years, boats have had hydraulic steering, but this boat will have electric steering. With hydraulic, each steering wheel operates a rotary pump, which sends oil down hoses to a hydraulic cylinder that moves the tillers. Additionally there is usually a small hydraulic pump on the back of one of the engines, to provide power assistance, and then also there is an electrically operated hydraulic pump with solenoid valves for the autopilot. So that's 4 pumps usually, and many metres of hose that has to be routed through the boat and kept full of oil and bled.
In the last few years several manufacturers have switched to electric steering, involving no hydraulics at all, and this SL96A will be built that way. Everything is a trade off and I think the pros/cons are these:
- Electric much easier to install for the builder
- Electric has much less hardware (no hydraulic pumps)
- Electric offers easier autopilot integration because the connection is just electrical and there is no autopilot pump or solenoid valves.
- Electric doesn't lose power steering if the one engine that powers the p/steering fails
- Electric steering systems invariably have two electric actuators. This allows the two rudders to move at different angles (inner one turned more) which is how Ferretti do it on Riva Argo, or allows 100% back up with a tie bar between the two tillers (which is how Sanlorenzo do it)
- Electrical system allows very easy swap out of failed components. You will see/feel wear in the electrical actuators long before they actually fail
- Electrical system has rotary encoders at each helm, so you can choose the haptics (feedback/resistance/feel) and choose the number of turns lock to lock. You can also add another steering point wherever you want it, eg in the armrest of a chair or at a wing station (the communication from steering wheel to box in engine room that switches the actuators is standard CANbus).
- Hydraulic is essentially mechanical (hydraulic) so will not fail if electrical connections fail. That's the only advantage I can think of for hydraulic.
First picture below is a Sanlorenzo port side rudder (boat in build, not finished) showing the linear actuator operating the tiller. Second picture is a generic reminder of how these actuators work (DC electric motor, via reduction gears, turns a leadscrew). Third picture is the helm control unit that controls the haptics/feedback, lock-to-lock turns and other stuff.
The system used by Sanloronzo is Italian, made by Worldyachts (who also make hydraulic steering btw). Electric Steering.
Anyone got any love/hate/worries about this relatively new form of steering?
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Bouba
Well-known member
Many large motor yachts work all year…Caribbean then to the Med…transported by ship where all the hull work is done during the crossing
Portofino
Well-known member
My hydraulic has a electric 24 v pump mounted on the BCS tank .It does the passerelle as well .So your 4 point relying on a engine drive pump doesn’t apply .That may be a function of the size / scale .Over a certain size only mech pumps perhaps are big enough??
Any how I have a worry from a similar experience with electric worm + rack actuators ( your pic says “Acme drill unit “and “lead screw head “ ) in electric gates also Italian brand that uses what look like the same actuator design .
With starting or reversing they jerk .Something to do with the AC motors suddenly getting massive inductive torque ??
Where as with hydraulic valve operated stuff , be it rams on passerelle, arms on diggers and the ram on your trad rudders there’s no jerk , just a gentle start because the valve I presumed opens up proportionally to get the rams to move .
They may have developed some slow start electrotwackery with the marine PAS , rams to soft start them ? Perhaps D.C. motors
I only skimmed the links and it’s not clear what type of motors ….assume straight D.C. ? Over inverter D.C. to AC ??
Aside I doubt even if there was a initial movement jerk ( compared to Trad hydraulic) ….let’s call it a twitch of the rudder it’s inconsequential due to the weight of the boat and gentle manoeuvring motions anyhow .
It s probably pretty good in a big heavy boat
In the car world ( I know dangerous territory comparing ) electric PAS reduces steering feel compared to outgoing hydraulic where sports car manufacturers have move to electric . It reduces emissions, reduces the CO 2 number = meets manufacturers targets .But dulls the driving experience. But as you say you can dial in a bit of feel on a boat .Exact millimetre track positioning a is NA .
Summary tech progress with a balance of upsides .
Any how I have a worry from a similar experience with electric worm + rack actuators ( your pic says “Acme drill unit “and “lead screw head “ ) in electric gates also Italian brand that uses what look like the same actuator design .
With starting or reversing they jerk .Something to do with the AC motors suddenly getting massive inductive torque ??
Where as with hydraulic valve operated stuff , be it rams on passerelle, arms on diggers and the ram on your trad rudders there’s no jerk , just a gentle start because the valve I presumed opens up proportionally to get the rams to move .
They may have developed some slow start electrotwackery with the marine PAS , rams to soft start them ? Perhaps D.C. motors
I only skimmed the links and it’s not clear what type of motors ….assume straight D.C. ? Over inverter D.C. to AC ??
Aside I doubt even if there was a initial movement jerk ( compared to Trad hydraulic) ….let’s call it a twitch of the rudder it’s inconsequential due to the weight of the boat and gentle manoeuvring motions anyhow .
It s probably pretty good in a big heavy boat
In the car world ( I know dangerous territory comparing ) electric PAS reduces steering feel compared to outgoing hydraulic where sports car manufacturers have move to electric . It reduces emissions, reduces the CO 2 number = meets manufacturers targets .But dulls the driving experience. But as you say you can dial in a bit of feel on a boat .Exact millimetre track positioning a is NA .
Summary tech progress with a balance of upsides .
Portofino
Well-known member
One more thing if on the gates theres a power cut or a wire supply failure you can manually disconnect the motor cog from the
“ lead screw “ This means they unlock and can be in emergency moved independently from the motors .
So you need an emergency back up …..a way of disconnecting the actuators if they lose power ….say hard over .
Presume you just pull the pin on the stock ….but you need to lock the blades in there neutral position .Just a thought .
Something like this red locking bar fabricated and attached for emergency
I f iam overthinking this tell me .
“ lead screw “ This means they unlock and can be in emergency moved independently from the motors .
So you need an emergency back up …..a way of disconnecting the actuators if they lose power ….say hard over .
Presume you just pull the pin on the stock ….but you need to lock the blades in there neutral position .Just a thought .
Something like this red locking bar fabricated and attached for emergency
I f iam overthinking this tell me .
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jfm
Well-known member
jfm
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If one actuator fails and doesn't jam the other one steers the boat, so you have nice redundancy. It a failed actuator jams, you remove its pin and the other actuator steers the boat - again. nice redundancy. If both fail then you have a standard steering lock pin on one or both tillers that you'd have on any decent boat, to hold the rudders central and then you steer with engines. Even if you don't have a lock pin, you could use ratchet straps. None of these worries are specific to electric steering - you apply exactly the same thinking to hydraulic steering.One more thing if on the gates theres a power cut or a wire supply failure you can manually disconnect the motor cog from the
“ lead screw “ This means they unlock and can be in emergency moved independently from the motors .
So you need an emergency back up …..a way of disconnecting the actuators if they lose power ….say hard over .
Presume you just pull the pin on the stock ….but you need to lock the blades in there neutral position .Just a thought .
Something like this red locking bar fabricated and attached for emergency
View attachment 153917
I f iam overthinking this tell me .
Portofino
Well-known member
BCS system no engine hydraulic PAS pump .All electric from this .
Better worded it powers the hydraulics mainly steering and intermittently the flaps + passerelle..
Its got a breaker on the console , you have to turn it on .
This means your # 4 is NA for me .Probably many others too .
There is no mech PAS pump on an engine .
The silver 24 v motor is circa €190 btw = carry a spare.
page 52 here https://www.twindisc.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/HYDRAULIC_STEERING_SYSTEMS_CATALOG-LR.pdf
The gate rams arnt cheap they are manufactured in Italy in house . 25 y old still kicking .Purchased pre China boom time .
Re post #252 .Yup .
Are you absolutely sure its having twin rams + tie bar ?
Just wondering how the pair could be synced? Or later with wear develop syncing issues .Thinking gear teeth stress or some other weak link ? Electrotwackery might come to the rescue,
With worm drives when dead you can’t pull n push them .A hydraulic ram under zero pressure can be manually moved .Not a worm drive .It’s got to turn / rotate. So if an actuator fails ie looses power it jams where it is .Hence needs disconnecting PDQ .
If there are two and one jams via a power loss and as you say is tied by a tie bar to the working actuator then something gotta give = bust .As I said theses screw “ acme drill unit “ + lead screw “ jam solid sans power .
There will be reasons why FG don’t tie them .I get the Ackerman effect fwiw if anything on a big boat ?
Better worded it powers the hydraulics mainly steering and intermittently the flaps + passerelle..
Its got a breaker on the console , you have to turn it on .
This means your # 4 is NA for me .Probably many others too .
There is no mech PAS pump on an engine .
The silver 24 v motor is circa €190 btw = carry a spare.
page 52 here https://www.twindisc.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/HYDRAULIC_STEERING_SYSTEMS_CATALOG-LR.pdf
The gate rams arnt cheap they are manufactured in Italy in house . 25 y old still kicking .Purchased pre China boom time .
Re post #252 .Yup .
Are you absolutely sure its having twin rams + tie bar ?
Just wondering how the pair could be synced? Or later with wear develop syncing issues .Thinking gear teeth stress or some other weak link ? Electrotwackery might come to the rescue,
With worm drives when dead you can’t pull n push them .A hydraulic ram under zero pressure can be manually moved .Not a worm drive .It’s got to turn / rotate. So if an actuator fails ie looses power it jams where it is .Hence needs disconnecting PDQ .
If there are two and one jams via a power loss and as you say is tied by a tie bar to the working actuator then something gotta give = bust .As I said theses screw “ acme drill unit “ + lead screw “ jam solid sans power .
There will be reasons why FG don’t tie them .I get the Ackerman effect fwiw if anything on a big boat ?
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Mr Googler
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Elessar
Well-known member
Volvo launched an electric steering system at the 2005 London boat show………
Sticky Fingers
Well-known member
My boat has the current version of the VP electric steering. Works perfectly as far as my limited experience can tell. There’s no feel at the wheel at all which is a bit odd, but on the other hand it’s really light and only about 3 turns lock to lock. Also, there is no wheel centring at straight ahead, so neat and symmetrical alignment of the spokes is not a thing either, it settles wherever the wheel was left when you turn it on. Presumably these could be engineered in.
Elessar
Well-known member
I was taking the Micky and talking about IPS ……..
I guess the new Volvo electric steering is for out drives?
Sticky Fingers
Well-known member
Well, mine is. Yes it’s DP-H. But probably the same kit as the IPS uses?
They have an independent actuator for each leg. No tie bar.
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jfm
Well-known member
I'm struggling to believe that a passerelle power pack with a little DC motor that small also runs PAS but if you say so...
Your motor is not on page 52. For electro hydraulic PAS I would want a power pack like on page 50.
Yes I'm sure Sanlorenzo fit twin rams and a tie bar. The rams communicate their position to each other so they synch by the faster one slowing down. Same concept as table or TV up/done mechanisms. Well trodden path.
There are no worm drives here as you can see from my picture. But I get your point, and yes in some failure modes the electric actuator will jam, as will hydraulics in some failure modes. As I said above you would then quickly disconnect it = 5 mins job. You'd get error messages telling you all this. The other ram would then drive both rudders.
Yes there is a reason FG don't tie them as I said - they have chosen to have ackerman steering but pay the price of no redundancy. Perfectly sensible choice.
MapisM
Well-known member
So do I, but there's a but.
Back in the days when PF boat was built, BCS (which stood for Bini, Cecchi, Salvadori) was the main IT supplier of PAS systems, together with Marsili.
In fact, in 95% of IT boats of those years you will either find one or the other, also in boats much larger than his Itama.
Fast fwd to the mid noughties, Twin Disc took over BCS, which is the reason why even nowadays you can find in their catalogue parts identical to much older BCS stuff.
So, I'm not surprised to hear that the above power pack works as a PAS because, well, I think that's what it was, originally.
If anything, it's the usage of it ALSO for the passerelle that is unusual - for me anyway, since I've never seen it before.
Then again, for all I know, Amati may well have used that solution on all of his boat.
I'd be more surprised if that would have been carried over by Ferretti in "new" Itamas, but again, IDK.
All that said, I have a funny feeling that at some stage someone messed up the power pack in PF post #253.
First, the solenoid attached to the electric motor with cable zip ties would have never been supplied like that by BCS, which was a serious company - in fact, there is a steel collar around it (white painted, like all the rest) which pretty sure is originally meant to attach it in some other way.
Second, the tiny motor itself doesn't look OEM, both because of its size and because it's not painted.
Bottom line, my guess is that some mechanic thought to replace the original motor with whatever he found that could fit, maybe also because the original BCS part costed an arm and a leg.
And by the by, that would also explain why the poor PF struggles to steer at speed...
As an aside, on the Ackerman steering possibility exploited by Ferretti, I wholeheartedly agree with SL choice to NOT use it and privilege full redundancy instead.
I would love to be given a chance to control the rudders on any FG boat, with Galassi at the helm, and ask him to tell when the system is on (independent rudders) and when it's not (parallel rudders) - obviously without letting him see when I switch them on/off.
I'm willing to eat my hat if even HE can tell the difference - let alone any other boater!