Net zero hits boating !

[dunedin]

It seems to me the paper was written by someone who has never been on a small boat and has no idea of how they work. It is almost impossible to make an all electric cruising boat. Jimmy Cornell tried and failed, the Wynns failed and the list goes on. You can’t generate sufficient electricity at sea to exist. Day sailing is possible but it will become hazardous as we hear RNLI call outs for people being washed up with flat betteries.

Which paper are you referring to? The one that started the post only relates to commercial vessels over 400GT so doesn’t claim to cover small boats. The separate Consultation just opened specifically is seeking evidence about small boats - so people should perhaps respond to the consultation if they have data.
Clearly there is no case to bin a working diesel engine and replace it with electric. BUT there are an increasing number of use cases where electric is becoming a viable option - many on here already use for tenders, lots of marina based dayboats now sold with electric drive options, and electric + foils looks the way to go for a fast powerboat for day use.

When you refer to Jimmy Cornell “tried and failed” this was a blue water sailing catamaran - not the focus for this particular forum. But perhaps worth exploring that a bit further before dismiss as “failure”. Fast offshore catamarans are potentially ideal candidate for electric drives. As they sail fast, so the electric regeneration works well, masses of deck space for solar, and rarely need to motor as sail faster than even a diesel could drive them.
Jimmy Cornell was slightly too ambitious in one respect (only) - he insisted on zero emissions for everything, and not even a gas cylinder or a backup generator for cooking, The drives worked well, the regeneration worked quite well (one drive was an older generation Oceanvolt, not the modern type, which reduced effectiveness). But the thing that killed the trip was the power demands for multiple fridges & freezers, and the cooking.
As I understand it the boat builder strongly recommended a secondary gas cooker and/or a range extender generator. With the latter it would be a serial hybrid with HUGE range. For offshore cruising yachts, a serial hybrid is a serious contender for a new build boat, and many now launched.

 

[westernman]

With 12 guests on board I could make a pretty strong argument for our boat yes. We already offer options for corporations wanting to respect their carbon commitments. As mentioned earlier the gyro is a big help.

We also use an itinerary which makes the most of slow speed time on board. But should the need arise or in an emergency we can do 30 knots.

Having lots of space to relax means we don’t need to thrill seek. We can potentially operate at around 10 litres of fuel per person per day. 4 hours at 20 litres per hour to give 7 knots. 2 hours at 10 ltrs per hour to give 6 knots. 8 hours at 3.5 ltrs for the generator.

By contrast I believe a long haul flight uses 300 plus ltrs per person each way.

A planing speed charter would probably use a bit over 40 ltrs per person

Fuel price in the UK means many people now use their boats at displacement speed.

Henry

4-5 litres per 100 kms per person for a jet with modern engines, or a turbo prop with modern engines (although obviously about 1/2 the speed of a jet).
So it is actually greener for some one to fly from the SOF to Paris than it is to drive on their own.

 

[henryf]

4-5 litres per 100 kms per person for a jet with modern engines, or a turbo prop with modern engines (although obviously about 1/2 the speed of a jet).
So it is actually greener for some one to fly from the SOF to Paris than it is to drive on their own.

So 475 litres per person each way to fly London to Bangkok. 1,000 ltrs return.

A day out on our boat is pretty good then.

 

[flaming]

With 12 guests on board I could make a pretty strong argument for our boat yes. We already offer options for corporations wanting to respect their carbon commitments. As mentioned earlier the gyro is a big help.

We also use an itinerary which makes the most of slow speed time on board. But should the need arise or in an emergency we can do 30 knots.

Having lots of space to relax means we don’t need to thrill seek. We can potentially operate at around 10 litres of fuel per person per day. 4 hours at 20 litres per hour to give 7 knots. 2 hours at 10 ltrs per hour to give 6 knots. 8 hours at 3.5 ltrs for the generator.

By contrast I believe a long haul flight uses 300 plus ltrs per person each way.

A planing speed charter would probably use a bit over 40 ltrs per person

Fuel price in the UK means many people now use their boats at displacement speed.

Henry

If large numbers of boats are now being used in displacement mode, then the logic of continuing to build large planing power boats instead of power cats etc is going to look a bit off.

Especially as fuel prices continue to rise.

But you still, I think, miss the biggest threat to leisure power boating using fossil fuels. And that is simply optics once the rest of the economy is well on the way to transitioning away from Fossil fuels. Using fossil fuels for an entirely leisure purpose is not, I think, going to sit well with a society that has decided to reduce use down to the absolute minimum.

 

[henryf]

If large numbers of boats are now being used in displacement mode, then the logic of continuing to build large planing power boats instead of power cats etc is going to look a bit off.

Especially as fuel prices continue to rise.

But you still, I think, miss the biggest threat to leisure power boating using fossil fuels. And that is simply optics once the rest of the economy is well on the way to transitioning away from Fossil fuels. Using fossil fuels for an entirely leisure purpose is not, I think, going to sit well with a society that has decided to reduce use down to the absolute minimum.

Which is where politics gets it all wrong, constantly chasing the optics rather than understanding the reality.

Across the world people suffer the long term effects of a short term knee jerk reaction because it looked good or placated the public’s misguided understanding.

Look at the exodus from the UK of high tax generating high net worth individuals because changes to non dom status means they will be taxed on earnings totally unrelated to the UK - but the public perception was that they were trying to avoid paying tax on UK earnings.

Unfortunately my brain is too logical to understand the mistakes.

 

[flaming]

Which is where politics gets it all wrong, constantly chasing the optics rather than understanding the reality.

Except that the optics are the reality that people with conspicuous consumption face.

 

[ducked]

.


Under the maritime decarbonisation strategy, boat owners will be forced to swap out diesel engines, petrol generators and wood-fired stoves for electric motors, batteries and extra shore power hookups.

?Wood-fired stoves are carbon neutral

 

[Refueler]

?Wood-fired stoves are carbon neutral

Problem is though ... trees are one of the biggest 'collectors' of CO2 .... so cutting down and burning them leaves CO2 in the atmosphere.... plus the act of burning the wood releases the trapped CO2 back out into atmosphere ...

That's before we get to Particulate Matter !

 

[billskip]

Problem is though ... trees are one of the biggest 'collectors' of CO2 .... so cutting down and burning them leaves CO2 in the atmosphere.... plus the act of burning the wood releases the trapped CO2 back out into atmosphere ...

That's before we get to Particulate Matter !

Doesn't particularly matter...

 

[ari]

Except that the optics are the reality that people with conspicuous consumption face.

What reality is that? I have a car that averages 35mpg and a boat that averages 1mpg. The reality is that the car conspicuously consumes more fuel than the boat per year. But as Henry says, people focus on the optics, rather than the reality.

 

[flaming]

What reality is that? I have a car that averages 35mpg and a boat that averages 1mpg. The reality is that the car conspicuously consumes more fuel than the boat per year. But as Henry says, people focus on the optics, rather than the reality.

Yes… but the point is that the car is being phased out. After that point the boat becomes rather more exposed to the optics of conspicuous consumption…

It doesn’t help that it’s entirely a leisure item…

 

[westernman]

Yes… but the point is that the car is being phased out. After that point the boat becomes rather more exposed to the optics of conspicuous consumption…

It doesn’t help that it’s entirely a leisure item…

I don't think this boat is a leisure item.

 

[ducked]

Problem is though ... trees are one of the biggest 'collectors' of CO2 .... so cutting down and burning them leaves CO2 in the atmosphere.... plus the act of burning the wood releases the trapped CO2 back out into atmosphere ...

That's before we get to Particulate Matter !

Well, there is an implied focus on the difference between inputs and outputs, with the phrase "Net Zero" implying a state of balance . An undisturbed Tropical Rain Forest, for example, is in such a state, with its emissions of CO2 balancing its absorption, so it doesn't absorb or emit any net CO2.

If carbon fixed by trees is not "locked up" longish term, say in wooden buildings, anaerobic bogs, or soil charcoal, it gets cycled back into the atmosphere when the fallen timber or wooden boat decays. A wood burning stove is just a slightly faster substitute for the decay process.

 

[ducked]

I don't think this boat is a leisure item.

View attachment 191501

Tennis courts?

 

[jrudge]

Yes - I think this will be the way to go in the future.

Serial hybrid (i.e. a biggish generator - 50HP or more to fill up the batteries when at anchor) and a big enough battery for 75nm at a decent cruising speed with enough left over for the air-conditioning, the freezer, the cooker and the hot showers.

The problem is going to be the batteries - probably 500KWh or more will be needed for 75nm for a 45ft Swift Trawler sized foiler.
That is going to be 75K euros or more for the battery. It had better last better than my lead acid leisure batteries!
500KWh battery is likely to weight about 2.5Tonnes.

All feasible and the price for the battery is not too shocking compared to the cost a two Volvo Penta 350HP engines.

Benetau, when will it be available?

Bear in mind charging 500kwh will take time. I have 45 kw at home. Charges in 4 hours or so in a 12kw 3 phase inverter. This is a good supply and not available at every marina berth ! So you are looking at circa 45 hours to charge it - ie 2 days. Now someone of course can come up with a faster charger - but given boats don't move about like cars and will all come in at the end of the day having a charging station with 6 outlets or whatever is not going to cut it - assuming the marina can get an electrics supply able to cope with charging 6 boats.

 

[flaming]

Bear in mind charging 500kwh will take time. I have 45 kw at home. Charges in 4 hours or so in a 12kw 3 phase inverter. This is a good supply and not available at every marina berth ! So you are looking at circa 45 hours to charge it - ie 2 days. Now someone of course can come up with a faster charger - but given boats don't move about like cars and will all come in at the end of the day having a charging station with 6 outlets or whatever is not going to cut it - assuming the marina can get an electrics supply able to cope with charging 6 boats.

Most boats generally sit still all week and go out at the weekend. So a power supply capable of delivering say 80% of battery capacity over a 5 day period would be fine for most berths. Sure that's an upgrade over the current setup, but at the rate of new boat sales it doesn't have to be done overnight....
Then just have a few rapid chargers for those going out the next day - a fairly basic 50kW charger ought to be able to charge your 500KWh MOBO overnight. And a couple of super rapid 350KW chargers for faster top ups.

That absolutely could be done, the obstacle is funding and requiring the first people to take the leap. In the land of EV cars it required a brand to come along and decide to do both the cars and the chargers. Can't see that happening any time soon in the boating world though.

 

[henryf]

A number of points:

We burn fallen wood in our wood burner.

A lot of car journeys are leisure these days.

Even more flights are taken for leisure purposes. Will we be banning the foreign holiday?

Worldwide I’m not sure we will ever see the electrical takeover of cars / light goods vehicles. A few highly developed countries are seeing some penetration, by the time it spreads worldwide the technology will have been superseded.

I still come back to the fact that unlike aeroplanes boats do have the ability to reduce speed down to ultra frugal fuel consumption levels. Planes essentially have a single speed or at best very narrow window of operation which burns huge amounts of fuel.

Privately used boats are already reducing fuel burn by going slowly, I see it a lot as we work the Solent.

 

[PaulRainbow]

A number of points:

We burn fallen wood in our wood burner.

A lot of car journeys are leisure these days.

Even more flights are taken for leisure purposes. Will we be banning the foreign holiday?

Worldwide I’m not sure we will ever see the electrical takeover of cars / light goods vehicles. A few highly developed countries are seeing some penetration, by the time it spreads worldwide the technology will have been superseded.

I still come back to the fact that unlike aeroplanes boats do have the ability to reduce speed down to ultra frugal fuel consumption levels. Planes essentially have a single speed or at best very narrow window of operation which burns huge amounts of fuel.

Privately used boats are already reducing fuel burn by going slowly, I see it a lot as we work the Solent.

We have a top end cruising speed of about 25kts, but cruise at 6kts in the local tidal rivers, 10 kts at sea. If needs must, we might spend a little time ar 20kts.

 

[henryf]

Most boats generally sit still all week and go out at the weekend. So a power supply capable of delivering say 80% of battery capacity over a 5 day period would be fine for most berths. Sure that's an upgrade over the current setup, but at the rate of new boat sales it doesn't have to be done overnight....
Then just have a few rapid chargers for those going out the next day - a fairly basic 50kW charger ought to be able to charge your 500KWh MOBO overnight. And a couple of super rapid 350KW chargers for faster top ups.

That absolutely could be done, the obstacle is funding and requiring the first people to take the leap. In the land of EV cars it required a brand to come along and decide to do both the cars and the chargers. Can't see that happening any time soon in the boating world though.

How would you see the life expectancy of batteries being integrated within the overall environment impact of your plan?

In particular the occasional / seasonal use. Once a battery is discharged it tends to be damaged and I know there is a preferred cycle in terms of how deep you discharge between charges.

I’m going to totally ignore the infrastructure issues even though it’s hard enough to find a 32 amp feed where we are let alone anything of the size you mention. Even the 16 amp supplies are flimsy.

 

[henryf]

We have a top end cruising speed of about 25kts, but cruise at 6kts in the local tidal rivers, 10 kts at sea. If needs must, we might spend a little time ar 20kts.

I don’t know what boat you have but reducing down from 10 knots a bit might halve your fuel burn !