Navionics webapp is no more...

[lustyd]

That’s disappointing to say the least.

 

[smert]

It's a very Agile product delivery mindset though. They have migrated to a new platform and have delivered the Minimum Viable Product. Now wait to see what the users shout about wanting most and deliver this next.

 

[baart]

I am experimenting with various apps now and the free versions of c map and i boating seem to provide sufficent tools for planing. The way to go seems to be to get a bigger tablet.

 

[DangerousPirate]

It's a very Agile product delivery mindset though. They have migrated to a new platform and have delivered the Minimum Viable Product. Now wait to see what the users shout about wanting most and deliver this next.

Dirty tricks though, especially considering if you're already paying for your charts.

 

[ylop]

Dirty tricks though, especially considering if you're already paying for your charts.

I’m not sure it’s dirty tricks to remove a free product! I do understand the frustration as I use the boating app on a tablet I leave on board but have found the web app useful for “at home” what if planning.

Having been involved in maintaining software products I can imagine this might not be entirely Garmins fault either - they may have used someone else’s framework or library which is out of support.

 

[B27]

With a sailing boat, our planning tends to be pretty basic.
HW so we can leave.
Weather forecast.
Table of distances from the Almaniac.
Look at tide stream atlas.
Guess 4 knots to get a passage time, allow 'more' if it's to windward.

I wouldn't trust Navionics planning anyway, as their clever crowd-sourced depth data is very often comically wrong.

I will try a different package next year.

Pilotage for arrival, I prefer to read from trusted sources.

 

[[193211]]

I’m less and less keen on subscription services. In this instance, they removed functionality and the price remains unchanged. That price will likely increase again next year.

 

[lustyd]

I wouldn't trust Navionics planning anyway, as their clever crowd-sourced depth data is very often comically wrong

The crowd sourced stuff is actually very good but is also optional. Their depth data is the same as any admiralty chart or similar.

 

[B27]

The crowd sourced stuff is actually very good but is also optional. Their depth data is the same as any admiralty chart or similar.

Yes, I use it with the depth data set to ignore the crowd sourced stuff.
One trip up the Tamar was enough to see that their depth data is beyond dodgy.
If it's indicative of the quality control they put into their data, then I'd not want to be relying on them for routing.

It's a shame, because the core of the product, vector charting, is done well.
And working on ipad as well as android is a bonus.

My needs are really pretty simple, just display the chart and show where my boat is.

 

[ylop]

If it's indicative of the quality control they put into their data, then I'd not want to be relying on them for routing.

Nobody sensible "relies" on them for routing, not least because it doesn't understand wind etc - but if you just want a quick "how far from A to B" calculation that knows you can't sail through headlands then its rather useful. That's handy on a Wednesday to decide where you might go at the weekend. You can then study that route carefully and decide if you really want to go that close to a lee shore etc! As far as I can see whilst Navionics does show tidal streams it doesn't factor them into your planning.

Theoretically Orca is much better for this - it knows the tidal stream, wind direction and the polar plot for your (or a similar) vessel and so actually suggest a route to sail. Unfortunately it doesn't know about some fairy significant west of scotland tidal streams (like the Cuan sound - potential 8 knts!) so still requires expert intervention, and I've heard criticism of its charting and understanding of Air Draft too...

I’m less and less keen on subscription services. In this instance, they removed functionality and the price remains unchanged. That price will likely increase again next year.

No they removed a free version of a similar product to the one you pay for.

 

[[193211]]

No? Ok.

A free product that’s widely used by subscribers to the Boating app to plan on desktops. How is this not reducing the functionality and therefore the value of the boating app?

 

[B27]

Nobody sensible "relies" on them for routing, not least because it doesn't understand wind etc - but if you just want a quick "how far from A to B" calculation that knows you can't sail through headlands then its rather useful. ....

I can get that from any map, or from the almanac table of distances.
I have a photo of the almanac page on my phone.
TBH, I could probably tell you roughly how far it is to the significant headlands in a 100 miles radius from here.


I imagine some of these app functions are more useful where you've got tons of islands to go between, in a motorboat.

 

[ylop]

No? Ok.

A free product that’s widely used by subscribers to the Boating app to plan on desktops. How is this not reducing the functionality and therefore the value of the boating app?

Because they are different products. Just because you buy one product from a supplier doesn't mean you are entitled to get any free products they offer indefinitely too. Their mistake if they had one was giving it away free to the public (not even needing a login) - although it might have cemented them as market leader in the paid app market.

I can get that from any map, or from the almanac table of distances.

Obviously anyone with a map/chart and ruler or dividers can work it out - nobody was suggesting navionics web app was anything other that a convenience. My charts, plotter, dividers all live on the boat along with the almanac so I never forget them. The advantage was the web app let you do what-if planning on say a wed lunchtime from the office. To be honest the boating app will still fulfil that need but small phone screen makes it a bit more fiddly.

I have a photo of the almanac page on my phone.
TBH, I could probably tell you roughly how far it is to the significant headlands in a 100 miles radius from here.

I don’t have a copy or photo to hand - but I don’t think it provides the sort of granularity that the web app did? My memory is it gives distances to major ports / marinas rather than individual anchorages?

I imagine some of these app functions are more useful where you've got tons of islands to go between, in a motorboat.

Well on West of Scotland we are not short of options - even with the inconvenience of having to work with the winds. A visual representation makes it easier to imagine which winds make that viable than some names and numbers in a table.

You are perfectly free to do it how you always have. I understand why people are sad to lose the option, I’m less convinced that we should expect it for free or because we subscribe to a related product. Obviously they will be paying the HOs for the raw data and the servers supporting it would be a significant cost that would grow with its user base. I don’t recall and ad revenue - so it’s only raisin d’etre was as a loss leader to hook you into the subscription products.

 

[lustyd]

I’m less convinced that we should expect it for free or because we subscribe to a related product. Obviously they will be paying the HOs for the raw data and the servers supporting it would be a significant cost that would grow with its user base. I don’t recall and ad revenue - so it’s only raisin d’etre was as a loss leader to hook you into the subscription products.

Agree with this, although the server cost is almost zero in the grand scheme of things since all processing was done in JavaScript at the browser end and charts would be sitting in CDN at very low cost.

That said I would have paid for this add on to my subscription. I find it odd that they just binned it and I find it odd that Navionics never monetised it.

 

[[193211]]

I’m not sure free is the right word. You can be sure we paid for it in some way or it wouldn’t have existed.

I guess we should stop freeloading, accept the inevitable “ensh*tification” of the service and remember the good times.

 

[ylop]

Agree with this, although the server cost is almost zero in the grand scheme of things

But definitely non zero and not so low that it’s just dismissed as marketing overhead!

since all processing was done in JavaScript at the browser end

I never checked but assumed it was webassembly (WAsm) - too fast for JS? It’s certainly a bit more complex than a typical front end web dev job of make button disabled until T&Cs ticked etc. so there’s significant overhead to staff it.

That said I would have paid for this add on to my subscription. I find it odd that they just binned it and I find it odd that Navionics never monetised it.

I agree on both points. I’m not convinced it won’t be back as a paid feature in the future.

I’m not sure free is the right word. You can be sure we paid for it in some way or it wouldn’t have existed.

I would be sure that if you paid for it in some way (profitably) that it would still exist! The only way it seems to have “made money” is by encouraging people to buy the sister products. It probably helped make the former Navionics shareholders rich - because Garmin perceived it as a big enough player to acquire.

 

[B27]

Garmin is a major seller of expensive marine (and other) plotters.
It's maybe not in their interest to promote cheaper systems that run on other hardware?

 

[bluerm166]

More irritating is the change, by Garmin who now run the Boating App for mobiles, to the subscription model in which charts are no longer accessible if the subscription is not renewed.
I have several paid apps and might decide to renew on these per year or not.
The others allow you to retain charts,so boating is most likely to go as its an interest,not as detailed as the others and a backup rather than a go-to.
I appreciate that both developing and maintaining charts costs money,and that newer versions of android lead to obsolescence but retaining chart versions with a suitable NOT for NAVIGATION stamp or similar would be a reasonable thing to do.And of course may lead to renewal.

 

[dunedin]

I’m not sure free is the right word. You can be sure we paid for it in some way or it wouldn’t have existed.

I guess we should stop freeloading, accept the inevitable “ensh*tification” of the service and remember the good times.

Interestingly, when I previously used the Navionics online map viewer - just to look at the chart of an area - it didn’t even offer the measuring dividers, let alone routing. I wonder if the extra app functionality was only for paid up subscribers?

 

[B27]

More irritating is the change, by Garmin who now run the Boating App for mobiles, to the subscription model in which charts are no longer accessible if the subscription is not renewed.
I have several paid apps and might decide to renew on these per year or not.
The others allow you to retain charts,so boating is most likely to go as its an interest,not as detailed as the others and a backup rather than a go-to.
I appreciate that both developing and maintaining charts costs money,and that newer versions of android lead to obsolescence but retaining chart versions with a suitable NOT for NAVIGATION stamp or similar would be a reasonable thing to do.And of course may lead to renewal.

the 'Boating' app is a complicated service where you are logging in to their servers and they are storing a lot of data.

What you are asking is like expecting Netflix to let you watch the films you paid for this year, forever. It doesn't work like that.
It might well be that the organisations that sell the chart rights to Garmin don't want Garmin to sell perpetual rights?

In some ways the changes at Navionics may turn out to be a good thing as it increases the market for alternative products which better serve what many of us want. I just want off-line charts stored on my phone and tablet, with no complication about logging in or internet data traffic.
Having had a couple of instances of Boating not working on my phone due to log-in issues over a bad mobile data signal, I'd rather be without any of their active captain community crap.

Meanwhile, I'm happily using a stable version of Boating on a couple of devices which have been in 'airplane mode' for over a year, so immune from any 'upgrades'.


On another matter, it seems to be a common feature of mobile map apps that the scale is only given as a silly short bar making it hard to judge distance, and measuring A to B distances is harder than it should be. I use a few 'outdoor' type apps for hiking, biking etc.