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[lustyd]

I'll break it down for you. Spoofing works because a 3rd party signal is received that causes the unit to miscalculate its position. This works because originally all signals were considered equal and it's trivial to recreate a satelite signal and broadcast it.
The problem here is that all signals are considered equal, not that there is a second source. Glonass and Galileo both provide signals which are broadly the same as GPS and they do so on the same or similar frequencies. These don't cause an issue because they are disregarded.
If we use authentication, then we can very easily determine who sent the signal. Using common cryptography techniques we can ensure that the source is trusted (this is very old maths). We then only process known good signals, meaning that if we get a position, it's as trustworthy as if nobody was spoofing.

As I said, jamming is a separate issue, with a different set of challenges.

 

[lustyd]

Not on here ....link ....is what is normally requested.

I provided links If people don't want to read them that's on them. What's baffling is when people refuse to accept an answer or do the reading and yet continue to participate in a conversation they clearly aren't willing to understand.

 

[rogerthebodger]

So we are required to accept you statement without any backup material or evidence to corrugate your statement.

Not even courts of law and scientific publications accept that

 

[billskip]

What a bizarre thing to say.

I've provided the information and some reading material. Why I know things and who pays me to know them is of no concern to you. The subject matter here is extremely basic and if you choose not to educate yourself that's up to you, but I don't need to provide credentials for knowing simple and widely understood security mechanisms from the previous century.

I have posted what you say to a friend who is well known and respected in this field, he says you don't know what your talking about.

 

[lustyd]

So we are required to accept you statement without any backup material or evidence to corrugate your statement.

No, you just need to do some reading. The material was posted earlier in the thread and you're choosing not to read it

 

[lustyd]

I have posted what you say to a friend who is well known and respected in this field, he says you don't know what your talking about.

Smashing. Ask them to elaborate on what was wrong with my explanation. I look forward to the discussion having some substance rather than you guys putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "no, no, no" repeatedly.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I'll break it down for you. Spoofing works because a 3rd party signal is received that causes the unit to miscalculate its position. This works because originally all signals were considered equal and it's trivial to recreate a satelite signal and broadcast it.
The problem here is that all signals are considered equal, not that there is a second source. Glonass and Galileo both provide signals which are broadly the same as GPS and they do so on the same or similar frequencies. These don't cause an issue because they are disregarded.
If we use authentication, then we can very easily determine who sent the signal. Using common cryptography techniques we can ensure that the source is trusted (this is very old maths). We then only process known good signals, meaning that if we get a position, it's as trustworthy as if nobody was spoofing.

As I said, jamming is a separate issue, with a different set of challenges.

Now we are getting somewhere and yes message authentication, and data encryption are an area of my knowledge I have and developed products for some of the major Banks in the country I live. These involve message authentication and Data Encryption Standard as developed by IBM and used by all credit card authentication buy the banks all around the world.

I still have some DES IC that I used and left over for my project, so you need to understand that there are people who also have the level of knowledge you claim and thus wish to verify your statement but like any scientific paper and the evidence in a court or law needs evaluation and corroboration

 

[billskip]

Smashing. Ask them to elaborate on what was wrong with my explanation. I look forward to the discussion having some substance rather than you guys putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "no, no, no" repeatedly.

I'll just settle with being reassured you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[lustyd]

These involve message authentication and Data Encryption Standard

This is more akin to TLS, but yes similar in principal

I'll just settle with being reassured you don't know what you are talking about.

Then I'll assume your friend is imaginary.

 

[billskip]

This is more akin to TLS, but yes similar in principal

Then I'll assume your friend is imaginary.

You can assume what you like.

 

[rogerthebodger]

This is more akin to TLS, but yes similar in principle

Then I'll assume your friend is imaginary.

And what do you understand as TLS please tell use all what that means for the general members

That is a if problem too many assumptions and not enough facts and I wish to know the fact not assumptions or unjustified opinion.

 

[lustyd]

TLS

Transport Layer Security (formerly SSL or Secure Socket Layer) is the use of public/private certificates to encrypt data in computer systems. On the web, the webpage uses the host certificate to encrypt and the client uses the public key to decrypt and trust that the source is genuine. In web solutions, this is the S in HTTPS, but it can apply to any network traffic.
Here I'm using it as a simple example of how the system works, since there are many differences between TLS and GNSS auth and encryption.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Transport Layer Security (formerly SSL or Secure Socket Layer) is the use of public/private certificates to encrypt data in computer systems. On the web, the webpage uses the host certificate to encrypt and the client uses the public key to decrypt and trust that the source is genuine. In web solutions, this is the S in HTTPS, but it can apply to any network traffic.
Here I'm using it as a simple example of how the system works, since there are many differences between TLS and GNSS auth and encryption.

Ho you mean part of the ISO 7-layer comms protocol TLC being one of the 7 layers or is it an additional layer on top of the ISO layer

As its a cryptographic protocol the method and what kind or encryption key that would be used. The protection of the encryption key would be important like the DES key is used for both encrypt and decrypt the data

 

[capnsensible]

Why are there so many reports (I only linked to one of dozens) that repeat this is a problem. Don't believe they are all in it to screw money out of people. That's paranoia and a millstone around military development. Those people who's career is to keep us safe.....

Why are nation States employing people to investigate, analyse and harden equipment against this and spending fortunes on new technology? Like quantum navigation?

Plenty of countries at it trying to get an advantage.

Space Command. Your country and Solent sailors need you!

 

[lustyd]

Ho you mean part of the ISO 7 layer comms protocol TLC being one of the 7 layers

The 7 layer model was superseded about 20 years ago, but yes that's the transport being referred to in a loose sense. It's actually more flexible than that, which has led to TLS being pretty ubiquitous.

Yes, protection of the core would be vital, exactly like DES. TLS on the web is pretty open and DNS is a big security risk since we don't encrypt DNS and so it's open to some attacks. With GNSS that's less of an issue because it's not open at all and there are only a handful of people who'd need a certificate, and those can all create their own and embed the public part of that in firmware rather than relying on DNS and certificate servers. This would mean that the GNSS implementation of such a technology would be extremely difficult to attack as a bad actor since you wouldn't have access to any of the things necessary for an attack.

 

[capnsensible]

Oh, I took some people out for a brisk sail for a couple of hours. No gps was used during this exercise and we survived.

Mind you, slight overcast fab viz and scorchio. Makes sailing a bit easier.

 

[lustyd]

Why are there so many reports (I only linked to one of dozens) that repeat this is a problem.

Because adoption has been restricted to the military, and that was always the plan. Adoption is a different problem to solving the issue at hand though.

Why are nation States employing people to investigate, analyse and harden equipment against this and spending fortunes on new technology? Like quantum navigation?

Well that's a completely different question. There are many use-cases for quantum nav systems and it solves many different problems than GNSS using very different techniques. A bit like how intertial systems are used on submarines because they solve the same problem in a different way to meet different requirements.

 

[lustyd]

No gps was used during this exercise and we survived

In the spirit of this thread, I demand evidence that the crew is still alive

 

[capnsensible]

Because adoption has been restricted to the military, and that was always the plan. Adoption is a different problem to solving the issue at hand though.

Well that's a completely different question. There are many use-cases for quantum nav systems and it solves many different problems than GNSS using very different techniques. A bit like how intertial systems are used on submarines because they solve the same problem in a different way to meet different requirements.

I get that bit. It's so it can't be interfered with. Hence the move to non reliance on the radio wave spectrum.

 

[lustyd]

I get that bit. It's so it can't be interfered with. Hence the move to non reliance on the radio wave spectrum.

Exactly. But the discussion and original link was specifically about eLoran, which is a radio wave solution with all of the same issues as GNSS