Navigation

[justanothersailboat]

Overambitious navigation leading to danger on voyages appears to be much, much older than electronics. Chap called Odysseus was at it millennia ago. And the Shipwrecked Sailor of ancient Egypt who wasn't prepared for... horrors!... twelve foot waves (admittedly that island he wound up on was pretty far-out). Electronics just make everything easier and more efficient, including getting into trouble.

oldmanofthehills, your tale of "ok til dawn" sounds rather wonderful.

 

[greeny]

Is paper a thing of the past then? How many, truthfully, back up their electronic navigation with paper backup?

 

[lustyd]

Is paper a thing of the past then? How many, truthfully, back up their electronic navigation with paper backup?

This was a question 20 years ago when people had 1 electronic nav aid. While I do use paper to mark position on long passages that has nothing to do with electronics failure.

In order for my electronics to fail, I'd have to lose two built in plotters, two handheld battery power plotters, two wrist watches with full charting on them, three phones and a couple of laptops/tablets. Even if all of that failed, it's trivial to get back to land and find somewhere to tie up or anchor. Nobody is ever that lost. If I were mid channel heading north towards the Solent and lost literally everything I'd carry on north and see where I ended up, then head in the easiest direction for the conditions until I saw a bay or river and voila, safe sailor.

 

[capnsensible]

Same coming back over the Atlantic.

If its cold and they speak Norwegian, turn south.

If its warm and they speak Spanish, turn North.

If its something completely weird and unintelligible, you are in Wales.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Same coming back over the Atlantic.

If its cold and they speak Norwegian, turn south.

If its warm and they speak Spanish, turn North.

If its something completely weird and unintelligible, you are in Wales.

And if its a touch foggy and you have just had the bottom torn out of your hull, you have hit Scilly or N Cornwall.

West Britain is unforgiving, from Admiral Shovell to the Torey Canyon. Approach with care even in full daylight. N Brittany not much easier - we like having plotter plus 2 iphones all running different chart systems, plus of course paper

 

[lustyd]

West Britain is unforgiving, from Admiral Shovell to the Torey Canyon. Approach with care even in full daylight. N Brittany not much easier

This just proves my point. You have enough in your head to safely make landfall on either coast.

 

[capnsensible]

This may be of interest.

UK MOD investigating deployable eLoran - GPS World

 

[lustyd]

This may be of interest.

UK MOD investigating deployable eLoran - GPS World

Not sure what problem they’re trying to solve other than an excess of budget. I can’t imagine a separate radio based solution would improve upon modern dgps technology in any meaningful way.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

This just proves my point. You have enough in your head to safely make landfall on either coast.

True, but a stranger to these parts using no paper charts but a single plotter which failed might be in great danger. Eric Tabarly managed to hit Scilly and he was no ocean novice

 

[rogerthebodger]

Not sure what problem they’re trying to solve other than an excess of budget. I can’t imagine a separate radio based solution would improve upon modern dgps technology in any meaningful way.

It's as we sailors should have is a plan B incase what is happening in Ukraine and middle east get serious.

I am glad I live at the bottom end of the world

 

[lustyd]

It's as we sailors should have is a plan B incase what is happening in Ukraine and middle east get serious.

I am glad I live at the bottom end of the world

If plan B uses radio it will have all of the deficiencies of GPS with the exception of transmit power.

 

[wonkywinch]

Not sure what problem they’re trying to solve other than an excess of budget. I can’t imagine a separate radio based solution would improve upon modern dgps technology in any meaningful way.

GPS spoofing is becoming a serious navigational issue in civilian aviation - Crew Guidance published by GPS Spoofing Workgroup

 

[lustyd]

GPS spoofing is becoming a serious navigational issue in civilian aviation - Crew Guidance published by GPS Spoofing Workgroup

And how do you think eLoran would change that, given it works in an identical way?

 

[capnsensible]

Not sure what problem they’re trying to solve other than an excess of budget. I can’t imagine a separate radio based solution would improve upon modern dgps technology in any meaningful way.

GPS spoofing. Ah, beaten to it.

There are a number of military projects underway around the world as GPS is now showing how vulnerable it is.

The RN research vessel Patrick Blackett is one such platform investigating new technologies such as quantum navigation.

There is an annual NATO exercise off the Clyde Approaches and beyond starting shortly. The GPS interruptions are promulgated locally. Expect bad actors to apply this kind of technology to screw up navigation in many other areas of the world, according to those researching it.

 

[capnsensible]

The system shall be capable of maintaining performance & accuracy for prolonged periods, including without access to eLoran and GNSS signals

Don't think this has just been dreamed up on a whim....

 

[lustyd]

The link was specifically about plans for an extended eLoran implementation. This is effectively the same as GPS but land based and so will have essentially all of the same issues.

 

[lustyd]

GPS spoofing

The issue is GPS jamming. Spoofing hasn’t been a real issue for some time since modern gnss can identify the source of the signal using encryption and keys. Consumer kit may not yet support it but the military certainly do.

 

[billskip]

In order for my electronics to fail, I'd have to lose two built in plotters, two handheld battery power plotters, two wrist watches with full charting on them, three phones and a couple of laptops/tablets. Even if all of that failed.......

...........I'm still tied to the pontoon....

 

[lustyd]

...........I'm still tied to the pontoon....

Well then you're not likely to get lost.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

The issue is GPS jamming. Spoofing hasn’t been a real issue for some time since modern gnss can identify the source of the signal using encryption and keys. Consumer kit may not yet support it but the military certainly do.

This is not correct. Sorry!