My first boat - buying tomorrow fingers crossed (advice pls)

[Bigplumbs]

Sorry my mistake he was only selling the muffs.

No it was the boat only got about 10 left now.... Never mind

 

[TonyBerkshire]

i was based out of hull now i've moved to grimsby so estuary and north sea for me.

for surveyor i used this guy Marine Surveyors, Boat Surveys, Yacht Surveys, Boat Safety Certificate (BSS) Scheme Examiner, UK he's local

What a coincidence.... did a quick google map search before I agreed to buy a boat to get an idea of survey costs... picked a company at random and it was this same company you recommended... spoke to a Mike Boulton and he was pretty good value... but when I asked when he could do he said in about a month. I don't believe seller will wait a month for boat payment?... and also I want to try and take possession of it as soon as I can

1) Covers Yorkshire
York Marina

Thank you and will check them out in Mon morning see if they can do any sooner.? What is a reasonable price to pay?

 

[TonyBerkshire]

For the more expensive boats, the usual process is you pay a deposit, have it surveyed, re-negotiate price/ reject if necessary, sea trial, renegotiate/ reject if necessary, pay balance, exchange paperwork and take ownership. This whole process can take days, weeks or months.
When you buy a small boat, a lot of these safeguards are impractical as they can take too long and add significant percentage to the overall cost. I think I'm right in saying that until money has changed hands a surveyors/mechanics hands are tied as to far he/she can delve into things as in effect you've employed someone to check somebody else's property.
A quite complicated and nerve racking process where luck can play a major part.

Oh I see. Can the surveyor/mechanic do the full survey in a few hours? I am sure the seller wouldn't mind me doing it at the same time I came up to see the boat and make payment on the same day? If I can get done in advance that would be better?

Quite correct and at the moment with boats selling so quick the Process ought to be:

Find a Boat
Go look at it quickly with someone that knows about boats if possible
If you like it Pay for it and take it home

I would say at the moment this is true for anything up to £20,000

Ok. Will go look at it a day next week... or maybe next weekend as its a 5 hour drive (need to stay within the road speed limit of course

I did a bit of due diligence and before I made the offer on the boat I called one of the guys on a receipt the seller provided for when they removed the carburettor, cleaned and rebuilt it with a new service kit in Jan 2020. He remembered the boat but did not check the condition of the whole boat. He is an hour away and said he is willing to come to Driffield for £40 an hour (2 hours drive and 1 hour inspection). Do you know this company?

I don't think its a full survey for this price but may be worth it? Or shall I get a proper survey done? I will share the companies used on the receipts / invoices I received from the seller shortly. Maybe you know some of them?

I don’t think you really need a survey per se on this type of boat, but a good once over with someone with half a clue to make sure it isn’t a complete shitter or hiding any glaringly dangerous defects. There’s nothing there that someone hands on and practical would particularly struggle with. Ensure everything is working as it should be. A bit awkward to hear it running on a trailer I guess, what are the chances that the owner has a nice big water container to immerse the leg in or one that they’d admit to having?! I guess you could use muffs for that and a hose, do people buying these trailer boats usually check that? Not sure how happy I would be buying something I can’t see run.

I watched someone view a boat that was in the boatyard, the owner fired the inboard engine up with no raw water cooling at all. It had been in the yard for about 5 months getting anti fouled and cleaned etc. They bought it. First time out the turbo failed, thing is nothing but trouble. I did suggest he might want to change the impeller soon too once I heard from him that he’d bought it.

Then as per the aforementioned, having the guy from Sea Monkey Marine for £40/hr would suffice then? I am keen on making sure the engine works ok... and it wont sink!!

Tony,

Most boat owners are fairly passionate about them I’d like to think. I would pick the owners brains as much as you can. Once he starts talking freely the advice will be gold.

No one knows that boat better than him, if he can show you/talk you through operating/shut down procedures etc it’ll give you a good insight into how he has used/treated it and some valuable information and advice for you going forward provided he’s not a complete tool that is, I’m sure you’ll come to a conclusion about him soon enough!

I would ‘t want to buy anything really without dealing with the owner. I much prefer buying vehicles privately than through a dealer, chatting with the owner can yield a lot of clues and tell you a lot about what to expect from your purchase imho and goes a long way to indicate if your invest is sound!

How exciting!!

I have noticed that from this thread... the boat passion is gleaming through the screen!!

Yes, I have asked the lady selling on behalf of her boss that I want to speak to him and she will coordinate between our diaries.

I now need to buy a car (I have no toe bar and I drive a RWD beast)/// I have always had company cars from the start of my career before the American Muscle car I imported over so don't know much about buying cars.... was thinking an Audi Q7 would suffice to pull this around ? (2nd hand they seem cheap at around only £7k for c£100k miles?) and there are 7 seats so win win more space for our puppy. Not sure what mileage is the cut off before considered "high mileage" and to avoid?

 

[TonyBerkshire]

Ok, you guys inspired me to do some more digging, went through all of the paperwork received so far and learnt quite a bit in respect to boat / engine part names, things that need keeping an eye on, average costs for things (albeit inflation!!), etc.

so 3 things below for review and comment...

1) these are the companies below that are on the paperwork. Anyone here recognise any and are they reputable?



2) Produced a summary of each of the invoices as below. From this I saw one on 04/11/2004 with MCM 3.0L 0L342468 number stipulated on it. So I am reassured now that this could a genuine boat for sale . Albeit for many years DM Marine had been writing Sea Ray 120 on the invoice AND NOT 180? From this table can you establish any patterns of things that could go wrong / might be wrong with this boat or are all of these things normal maintenance?



3a) This below is the timeline of the table data above. There are some big gaps in this timeline and should I be concerned? The map shows where the boat has lived, blue where it is now and that's me in Wokingham.

3b) I asked the lady I bought this from on ebay who the owner is and she said "namely her boss ". However, his name does not appear on any documents he has ssent (table above) even though she advised there is a receipt between previous owner and current owner?

3c) In 2015, the one in red is the name on the credit agreement for the insurance so not sure why this is different? Albiet the address postcode is not that far from the assumed owner in orange.




NB: All of this detail was shared online by the seller already.... should any of you have any GDPR concerns

 

[Sneds]

Have you considered that this boat may be stolen?
All seems a lot of smoke and mirrors to me.
Also this boat isn’t really suitable for Thames use. Find another boat, there are plenty out there.
All assuming of course this is a genuine post, if it is good luck if it isn’t thanks for the entertainment.

 

[TonyBerkshire]

Have you considered that this boat may be stolen?
All seems a lot of smoke and mirrors to me.
Also this boat isn’t really suitable for Thames use. Find another boat, there are plenty out there.
All assuming of course this is a genuine post, if it is good luck if it isn’t thanks for the entertainment.

I was feeling that too but a few things are checking out... would they have stolen all of the paperwork too though ?

Why is it not suitable because of the speed restrictions or other reasons? Will be taking it other places too but I do like the river thames. Maim goal is to have fun with the family.

Urm... hope this post is genuine .. I'm writing it ... definitely not AI ?

 

[Nito]

Wow, don’t let BigPlumbs see that spreadsheet

Some good work there! Yes those service items give you a perfect glimpse of what to expect.

You’ll probably have to (depending on use) anti foul annually and renew anodes and an annual service on the engine and drive. Bellows on the outdrive will need replacing for peace of mind.

There are no recent invoices so either the owner had done service work himself or you may need to factor in a full engine/drive service and it looks like the antifoul needs doing anyway which isn’t a difficult job but it depends on how hands on you are. Many boat owners are very hands on and become quite autonomous in this respect and it’s part of the ownership experience. Others prefer not to get their hands dirty and pay someone else or a mixture of both, so don’t necessarily be too alarmed about a gap in history.

It’s good that you spoke with SeaMonkey, can’t help you with regards to knowing him but if he’s done work on the boat that wouldn’t be a bad thing. Does this Carmichael have any receipts or carried any work out, doesn’t look like it? With all the lockdowns there is perhaps little surprise there is no recent work but that’s not a good thing because there may be some recommissioning work in store for you.

The transom shield is what the leg and bellows connect to, it goes on the transom (rear upright of the boat) as the name suggests, check carefully around this for any signs of leakage and also signs of corrosion to the shield, you won’t truly know until it goes in the water but in terms of unwanted water entering the boat that’s the prime place for it. The leg should move smoothly left to right, up and down. Check the bellows carefully all around and when extended in each direction. The power from engine will pass through the bellow to get to the outdrive, it houses a driveshaft basically. There may be more than one bellow such as an exhaust bellow and possibly a small gear linkage one. Any cuts, cracking in the rubber or other damage means new bellows and could allow water in. They should probably be replaced every year or two anyway.

There is mention on an old invoice about corrosion around the exhaust. Have a look there and check it out, may have been sorted by now or may have got worse! The leg will have some rams to trim it, check for any apparent oil seepage on those when the trim operation is checked. Check the hull for any signs of damage, cracks or repairs, walk around tapping it for any untoward sounds, and kick the trailer tyres for good measure

With regards to mix up on description on invoice between 120/180 I wouldn’t worry. It’s common for places to make a mistake on paperwork, once entered incorrectly on the system that will be a continuity error going forward. It’s the same place showing it but if the hull number checks out then should be fine.

On the subject of theft and finance, make sure you get sight of the owners ID, personally I would ask to see his license and either take a photo of it if he’s ok with that or at the very least write down the number and check the address against the one on the receipt. Get him to write on the receipt that the boat passes with clear title and that there is no outstanding loans or finance secured against the vessel. At least this goes someway to anything coming back on you. Also visually verify the hull number and write that on the receipt also.

I’m guessing you haven’t slept much lol!!

As for a Q7, you don’t do things by halves, they drive nicely but like all that type of vehicle, they are heavy cars so if you are racking up mileage expect hefty bills. There are 3 types of bill, regular maintenance, catch up maintenance for all the stuff the previous owner should have had done but didn’t and those unexpected ones where it suddenly requires x,y,z. Having a decent history is a good start but lots of electrics on them and lots to go wrong. I wouldn’t want to be dipping one of those in the water to launch a boat. We have a Landcruiser and a Hilux, they probably do a good couple of £k a year in service bills each and the Landcruiser has racked up the odd £4.5k/year. That’s on 240k miles now so it’s earned its keep well. The Hilux is having a used engine fitted as we speak after a duff injector took out the piston at 185k miles.

I best post this message before I lose it lol!!

 

[TonyBerkshire]

Wow, don’t let BigPlumbs see that spreadsheet

Some good work there! Yes those service items give you a perfect glimpse of what to expect.

You’ll probably have to (depending on use) anti foul annually and renew anodes and an annual service on the engine and drive. Bellows on the outdrive will need replacing for peace of mind.

There are no recent invoices so either the owner had done service work himself or you may need to factor in a full engine/drive service and it looks like the antifoul needs doing anyway which isn’t a difficult job but it depends on how hands on you are. Many boat owners are very hands on and become quite autonomous in this respect and it’s part of the ownership experience. Others prefer not to get their hands dirty and pay someone else or a mixture of both, so don’t necessarily be too alarmed about a gap in history.

It’s good that you spoke with SeaMonkey, can’t help you with regards to knowing him but if he’s done work on the boat that wouldn’t be a bad thing. Does this Carmichael have any receipts or carried any work out, doesn’t look like it? With all the lockdowns there is perhaps little surprise there is no recent work but that’s not a good thing because there may be some recommissioning work in store for you.

The transom shield is what the leg and bellows connect to, it goes on the transom (rear upright of the boat) as the name suggests, check carefully around this for any signs of leakage and also signs of corrosion to the shield, you won’t truly know until it goes in the water but in terms of unwanted water entering the boat that’s the prime place for it. The leg should move smoothly left to right, up and down. Check the bellows carefully all around and when extended in each direction. The power from engine will pass through the bellow to get to the outdrive, it houses a driveshaft basically. There may be more than one bellow such as an exhaust bellow and possibly a small gear linkage one. Any cuts, cracking in the rubber or other damage means new bellows and could allow water in. They should probably be replaced every year or two anyway.

There is mention on an old invoice about corrosion around the exhaust. Have a look there and check it out, may have been sorted by now or may have got worse! The leg will have some rams to trim it, check for any apparent oil seepage on those when the trim operation is checked. Check the hull for any signs of damage, cracks or repairs, walk around tapping it for any untoward sounds, and kick the trailer tyres for good measure

With regards to mix up on description on invoice between 120/180 I wouldn’t worry. It’s common for places to make a mistake on paperwork, once entered incorrectly on the system that will be a continuity error going forward. It’s the same place showing it but if the hull number checks out then should be fine.

On the subject of theft and finance, make sure you get sight of the owners ID, personally I would ask to see his license and either take a photo of it if he’s ok with that or at the very least write down the number and check the address against the one on the receipt. Get him to write on the receipt that the boat passes with clear title and that there is no outstanding loans or finance secured against the vessel. At least this goes someway to anything coming back on you. Also visually verify the hull number and write that on the receipt also.

I’m guessing you haven’t slept much lol!!

As for a Q7, you don’t do things by halves, they drive nicely but like all that type of vehicle, they are heavy cars so if you are racking up mileage expect hefty bills. There are 3 types of bill, regular maintenance, catch up maintenance for all the stuff the previous owner should have had done but didn’t and those unexpected ones where it suddenly requires x,y,z. Having a decent history is a good start but lots of electrics on them and lots to go wrong. I wouldn’t want to be dipping one of those in the water to launch a boat. We have a Landcruiser and a Hilux, they probably do a good couple of £k a year in service bills each and the Landcruiser has racked up the odd £4.5k/year. That’s on 240k miles now so it’s earned its keep well. The Hilux is having a used engine fitted as we speak after a duff injector took out the piston at 185k miles.

I best post this message before I lose it lol!!

Thanks and I'll digest all that in a bit.. thanks for the time in advising and some really good information... and no... too excited to sleep ?

 

[BB1]

Have you considered that this boat may be stolen?
All seems a lot of smoke and mirrors to me.
Also this boat isn’t really suitable for Thames use. Find another boat, there are plenty out there.
All assuming of course this is a genuine post, if it is good luck if it isn’t thanks for the entertainment.

Actually with the 3 litre engine and it being a bowrlder this is a good all rounder boat and will be fine for a day out on the Thames, then a day out at sea the following weekend. Also an easy boat to resell at a later date.
If you buy the boat take it to Walker Outboards in Caversham for service and check over, a very experienced honest Mercruiser main agent.

 

[Bigplumbs]

The 3 ltr Mercruiser is quite a simple engine and Repower marine sell many spares etc for it. Here is a page to peruse to see the sort of costs you could be into if you had issues.

I still prefer outboards on this type of boat but the info below will give you come idea

Mercruiser Petrol Parts - Mercruiser

And if the worst happened here is a link to a new base engine


New 3.0L Four Cylinder Base Engine

 

[Bigplumbs]

Actually with the 3 litre engine and it being a bowrlder this is a good all rounder boat and will be fine for a day out on the Thames, then a day out at sea the following weekend. Also an easy boat to resell at a later date.
If you buy the boat take it to Walker Outboards in Caversham for service and check over, a very experienced honest Mercruiser main agent.

I agree if you are set on inboard for what ever reason

 

[ChromeDome]

I agree if you are set on inboard for what ever reason

And with an in/outboard you get a sterndrive.
The spreadsheet hold a lot of info - also tells that for multi-year periods nothing was done.

BTW had a Sea Ray 160 with Mercury 115 hp outboard "2+2 version" and non bow-rider for 14 years. Kept mint in and out at all times, loved it.

 

[Bigplumbs]

And with an in/outboard you get a sterndrive.
The spreadsheet hold a lot of info - also tells that for multi-year periods nothing was done.

BTW had a Sea Ray 160 with Mercury 115 hp outboard "2+2 version" and non bow-rider for 14 years. Kept mint in and out at all times, loved it.

What is an in/outboard ?

 

[julians]

What is an in/outboard ?

An Americanism for a boat with an outdrive, also known as I/o boats.

They class an inboard as being a boat with an inbound engine and shaft drive, outboard being a boat with an outboard and an inboard outboard as being a boat with an inboard engine and an outdrive.

 

[ChromeDome]

Yes indeed; sorry for not being clear - didn't want to Americanize ? .

I think it is an ok way to distinct 'inboard' from 'inboard with an outboard drive'.

To people who know the jargon it normally is sufficient to state if a boat has 'shaft', 'sterndrive', 'V-drive', 'pod', 'saildrive', 'surface drive', 'jet drive' etc.
Or 'outboard'. ?

 

[Bigplumbs]

Yes indeed; sorry for not being clear - didn't want to Americanize ? .

I think it is an ok way to distinct 'inboard' from 'inboard with an outboard drive'.

To people who know the jargon it normally is sufficient to state if a boat has 'shaft', 'sterndrive', 'V-drive', 'pod', 'saildrive', 'surface drive', 'jet drive' etc.
Or 'outboard'. ?

Dam Yanks. They could confuse anything………Learn to speak proper like what we do. And Jelly is jam let’s get that right from the start. ?

 

[chillee]

Don't think anyone mentioned it yet. but the most annoying thing you will find with a boat like this on the river, is that it won't track straight.
You will find initially that you are snaking along, going left and right as you try to correct the direction of the boat. And you might well think something is wrong.
This is usual, and with practice you will find that you are over compensating your steering corrections, and in time find you will need a lot less input to the steering than you initially thought.
Just a heads up for your first outing

 

[limecc]

Don't think anyone mentioned it yet. but the most annoying thing you will find with a boat like this on the river, is that it won't track straight.
You will find initially that you are snaking along, going left and right as you try to correct the direction of the boat. And you might well think something is wrong.
This is usual, and with practice you will find that you are over compensating your steering corrections, and in time find you will need a lot less input to the steering than you initially thought.
Just a heads up for your first outing

Can you clarify please?
Is it the hull shape or number of turns lock to lock?
I just purchased NFB steering for mine (an outboard) over hydraulic because cheaper hydraulic systems are always 5 turns and I wanted to reduce wear/play yet keep it to 3.

 

[chillee]

Can you clarify please?
Is it the hull shape or number of turns lock to lock?
I just purchased NFB steering for mine (an outboard) over hydraulic because cheaper hydraulic systems are always 5 turns and I wanted to reduce wear/play yet keep it to 3.

Not 100% sure, but it is at least partially related to prop Torque. By 20ft bowrider was particularly bad, my 25footer now still does it, but less so.

 

[limecc]

Not 100% sure, but it is at least partially related to prop Torque. By 20ft bowrider was particularly bad, my 25footer now still does it, but less so.

Aah, I know that prop design has a large influence on torque steer, whether they are bow lift or stern lift, whether cupping has been added etc. The shape of the thrust cone. Some RIBs with outboards have their engine offset to compensate, not possible with a sterndrive. Latter probably a subject for a separate thread.