duncanmack
Well-known member
Are you from the USA perchance?
Just curious, you understand. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Just curious, you understand. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Moonfleet Sailing - Cruise from Hell
- Thread starter CarolSheppard
- Start date
- Status
fireball
New member
It raises interesting general issues into the standard of sailing schools and expectations ...
This is your local pub - pub talk and general banter - all expected ....
It would be nice if the OP would answer some of the questions though ...
This is your local pub - pub talk and general banter - all expected ....
It would be nice if the OP would answer some of the questions though ...
Carol from a general consumers point of view you had a bad experience and I hope you public complaint leads to improved standards at that sailing school. Good on you for raising the matter.
There are a number of underlying issues here:
In my opinion the competent crew qualification is useless clutter on the RYA syllabus. Sailing schools dole these certs out to anyone who completes a 5 day sailing experience and who demonstrated they are not likely to be a disastrous liability on a yacht. The prose in the RYA literature probably set higher expectations about what you might get out of a competent crew training week but from a pro skippers perspective you are just one filled bunk on the yacht and someone who just needs to be taught a knot or two during a week.
Sailing around the English Channel in unsettled weather can be an endurance for any private yacht, but combine this with a full school boat run with a penny pinching attitude and the end result is not a fun holiday experience. My brother in law spent a week on board with the Southern Sea School based on recommendations posted in this forum and I think he would rather spend a week detained at her Majesty’s pleasure than return to that sailing school.
You had legitimate higher expectations about the onboard cuisine, a week long diet of Tesco label tinned food is substandard in view of the £300 - £400 cost of your 5 days onboard. Some sea schools recognise this common oversight in the industry and promote their distinctiveness in this respect, you just need to be a wiser consumer. Also remember for many men sailing is about volunteering to experience back to basics hardship punctuated by the odd slap up meal ashore .
The most important factor to consider when handing over any cash to the UK marine leisure industry is that it is a honey pot to an eclectic bunch of oddballs. There are the downsizing dreamers, gizzus a job incompetents, bluffers with big egos after a fast buck and sour faced characters bearing a grudge about something who take it out on people trying to have a fun time.
The clue about attitudes at Moonfleet can be deduced from the design of their web site.
There are a number of underlying issues here:
In my opinion the competent crew qualification is useless clutter on the RYA syllabus. Sailing schools dole these certs out to anyone who completes a 5 day sailing experience and who demonstrated they are not likely to be a disastrous liability on a yacht. The prose in the RYA literature probably set higher expectations about what you might get out of a competent crew training week but from a pro skippers perspective you are just one filled bunk on the yacht and someone who just needs to be taught a knot or two during a week.
Sailing around the English Channel in unsettled weather can be an endurance for any private yacht, but combine this with a full school boat run with a penny pinching attitude and the end result is not a fun holiday experience. My brother in law spent a week on board with the Southern Sea School based on recommendations posted in this forum and I think he would rather spend a week detained at her Majesty’s pleasure than return to that sailing school.
You had legitimate higher expectations about the onboard cuisine, a week long diet of Tesco label tinned food is substandard in view of the £300 - £400 cost of your 5 days onboard. Some sea schools recognise this common oversight in the industry and promote their distinctiveness in this respect, you just need to be a wiser consumer. Also remember for many men sailing is about volunteering to experience back to basics hardship punctuated by the odd slap up meal ashore .
The most important factor to consider when handing over any cash to the UK marine leisure industry is that it is a honey pot to an eclectic bunch of oddballs. There are the downsizing dreamers, gizzus a job incompetents, bluffers with big egos after a fast buck and sour faced characters bearing a grudge about something who take it out on people trying to have a fun time.
The clue about attitudes at Moonfleet can be deduced from the design of their web site.
webcraft
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
The clue about attitudes at Moonfleet can be deduced from the design of their web site.
[/ QUOTE ] As a web designer of this parish I find that comment a bit silly.
Moonfleet's website is ugly and home-made, but the information appears to be accurate and up to date, even up to late booking offers commencing next week.
To me this shows (if anything) that the business values substance above froth and prefers to spend its money on other things.
However, as most people are unduly influenced by surface appearances I agree that they would be doing themselves a big favour if they scraped the mould off their Happy Shopper website and gave it a major makeover.
- W
The clue about attitudes at Moonfleet can be deduced from the design of their web site.
[/ QUOTE ] As a web designer of this parish I find that comment a bit silly.
Moonfleet's website is ugly and home-made, but the information appears to be accurate and up to date, even up to late booking offers commencing next week.
To me this shows (if anything) that the business values substance above froth and prefers to spend its money on other things.
However, as most people are unduly influenced by surface appearances I agree that they would be doing themselves a big favour if they scraped the mould off their Happy Shopper website and gave it a major makeover.
- W
webcraft
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion the competent crew qualification is useless clutter on the RYA syllabus. Sailing schools dole these certs out to anyone who completes a 5 day sailing experience and who demonstrated they are not likely to be a disastrous liability on a yacht. The prose in the RYA literature probably set higher expectations about what you might get out of a competent crew training week but from a pro skippers perspective you are just one filled bunk on the yacht and someone who just needs to be taught a knot or two during a week.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you check the requirements for the CC course you will see that there are no less than 14 separate areas that have to be covered and signed off in the candidate's logbook during the five days.
The aim of this course is to introduce the complete beginner to cruising and to teach personal safety, seamanship and helmsmanship to the level required to be a useful member of the crew of a cruising yacht.
The instructor will sign against each of the competencies listed below, when successfully completed
1. Knowledge of sea terms and parts of a boat, her rigging and sails:
Sufficient knowledge to understand orders given concerning the sailing and day-to-day running of the boat
2. Sail handling
Includes setting, reefing and handling of sails and use of sheets, halyards and winches
3. Ropework
Ability to tie different knots and know their correct use, handling ropes and warps including coiling and securing to cleats
4. Fire precautions and fighting
Awareness of the hazards of fire, how to prevent it and knowledge of the action to be taken in event of fire
5. Personal safety equipment
Understands and complies with rules for wearing safety harnesses and lifejackets
6. Man overboard
Understands the action to be taken to recover a man overboard
7. Emergency equipment
Knows when to use and can operate distress flares and understands how to launch and board a liferaft
8. Manners and customs
Understands accepted practice including courtesies of sailing and berthing and is aware of responsibilities to protect the environment
9. Rules of the road
Is able to keep an efficient lookout at sea
10. Dinghies
Understands and complies with the loading rules and is able to handle a dinghy with oars
11. Meteorology
Awareness of forecasting services and knowledge of the Beaufort scale
12. Seasickness
13. Helmsmanship and sailing
Understands the basic principles of sailing and can steer and trim sails on all points of sailing, and can steer a compass course under sail and power
14. General duties
Has satisfactorily carried out duties in connection with daily running of the vessel, both on deck and below decks
Rather more than just filling a bunk then . . . and a lot to cover in a week if the boat is full, even more if there are candidates for other courses on board at the same time.
For those of you who knock the RYA cruising syllabus, course content or relevance then I suggest you go and run one yourselves - after obtaining the necessary qualifications of course.
In my opinion the competent crew qualification is useless clutter on the RYA syllabus. Sailing schools dole these certs out to anyone who completes a 5 day sailing experience and who demonstrated they are not likely to be a disastrous liability on a yacht. The prose in the RYA literature probably set higher expectations about what you might get out of a competent crew training week but from a pro skippers perspective you are just one filled bunk on the yacht and someone who just needs to be taught a knot or two during a week.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you check the requirements for the CC course you will see that there are no less than 14 separate areas that have to be covered and signed off in the candidate's logbook during the five days.
The aim of this course is to introduce the complete beginner to cruising and to teach personal safety, seamanship and helmsmanship to the level required to be a useful member of the crew of a cruising yacht.
The instructor will sign against each of the competencies listed below, when successfully completed
1. Knowledge of sea terms and parts of a boat, her rigging and sails:
Sufficient knowledge to understand orders given concerning the sailing and day-to-day running of the boat
2. Sail handling
Includes setting, reefing and handling of sails and use of sheets, halyards and winches
3. Ropework
Ability to tie different knots and know their correct use, handling ropes and warps including coiling and securing to cleats
4. Fire precautions and fighting
Awareness of the hazards of fire, how to prevent it and knowledge of the action to be taken in event of fire
5. Personal safety equipment
Understands and complies with rules for wearing safety harnesses and lifejackets
6. Man overboard
Understands the action to be taken to recover a man overboard
7. Emergency equipment
Knows when to use and can operate distress flares and understands how to launch and board a liferaft
8. Manners and customs
Understands accepted practice including courtesies of sailing and berthing and is aware of responsibilities to protect the environment
9. Rules of the road
Is able to keep an efficient lookout at sea
10. Dinghies
Understands and complies with the loading rules and is able to handle a dinghy with oars
11. Meteorology
Awareness of forecasting services and knowledge of the Beaufort scale
12. Seasickness
13. Helmsmanship and sailing
Understands the basic principles of sailing and can steer and trim sails on all points of sailing, and can steer a compass course under sail and power
14. General duties
Has satisfactorily carried out duties in connection with daily running of the vessel, both on deck and below decks
Rather more than just filling a bunk then . . . and a lot to cover in a week if the boat is full, even more if there are candidates for other courses on board at the same time.
For those of you who knock the RYA cruising syllabus, course content or relevance then I suggest you go and run one yourselves - after obtaining the necessary qualifications of course.
jordanbasset
Well-known member
I disagree with you that this forum should not be used to raise issues of poor service, whether from chandleries, marinas or sailing schools. However in this particular case bearing in mind the poster has not returned to give a progress report I think it may be prudent not to pursue it until we get more info.
However back to the geberal principle in relation to what you said -
"1 Take it up with the company
2 If that does not resolve the issue, then
3 If it is a case of misrepresentation, take it to Trading Standards
3 If it is a contract issue - ie the provider did not provide what he contracted to supply, the remedy is in law
4 If the complaint is about the standard of instruction, then the school is RYA approved and that is where any complaint should be directed."
I agree completely, however in addition after point two if the company has failed to respond satisfactorily then I think it perfectly justified to post on this site explaining the issues. If the poster is malicious then they do hold themselves open to legal action themselves. Too often companies, in whatever area of expertise, get away with shoddy service and the consumer is often left in the lurch. I repeat I am not commenting on this specific case but the general point that posters do have a right to highlight poor service on this forum
However back to the geberal principle in relation to what you said -
"1 Take it up with the company
2 If that does not resolve the issue, then
3 If it is a case of misrepresentation, take it to Trading Standards
3 If it is a contract issue - ie the provider did not provide what he contracted to supply, the remedy is in law
4 If the complaint is about the standard of instruction, then the school is RYA approved and that is where any complaint should be directed."
I agree completely, however in addition after point two if the company has failed to respond satisfactorily then I think it perfectly justified to post on this site explaining the issues. If the poster is malicious then they do hold themselves open to legal action themselves. Too often companies, in whatever area of expertise, get away with shoddy service and the consumer is often left in the lurch. I repeat I am not commenting on this specific case but the general point that posters do have a right to highlight poor service on this forum
Talulah
Well-known member
Even more thread drift...
If anyone fails to pass a competent crew course it is usually (with few exceptions) a reflection of the instructor.
(Retreats to a safe distance...)
NB I have never been asked to pass anyone by a sailing school who I thought wasn't fit.
If anyone fails to pass a competent crew course it is usually (with few exceptions) a reflection of the instructor.
(Retreats to a safe distance...)
NB I have never been asked to pass anyone by a sailing school who I thought wasn't fit.
SirSnoozalot
New member
Yes. I totally agree with Webcraft's post.
The Competant Crew is a vital part of the RYA syllabus, as it is the introductory element to having any training at all.
If you set the first rung on a ladder too high, then people cannot reach it, thus never join the ladder of having useful training at all.
Also, if you saw some of the output of Competant Crew schemes like those operated by the sea scouts, where they take problem hoodys out of the schools, put them to sea, and give them probably the first certificate and confidence they have ever had in life, then I feel you would also think differently.
The Competant Crew is a vital part of the RYA syllabus, as it is the introductory element to having any training at all.
If you set the first rung on a ladder too high, then people cannot reach it, thus never join the ladder of having useful training at all.
Also, if you saw some of the output of Competant Crew schemes like those operated by the sea scouts, where they take problem hoodys out of the schools, put them to sea, and give them probably the first certificate and confidence they have ever had in life, then I feel you would also think differently.
webcraft
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
If anyone fails to pass a competent crew course it is usually (with few exceptions) a reflection of the instructor.
[/ QUOTE ] Agree 100% - although those rare exceptions do exist.
If anyone fails to pass a competent crew course it is usually (with few exceptions) a reflection of the instructor.
[/ QUOTE ] Agree 100% - although those rare exceptions do exist.
Oliveoyl
New member
"12. Seasickness"
Have to experience it to get the logbook signed off? Or hand round and collect buckets? Or work out the correlation between seasickness and out-of-date canned food?
Have to experience it to get the logbook signed off? Or hand round and collect buckets? Or work out the correlation between seasickness and out-of-date canned food?
curve
New member
13. Eaten Happy Shopper food. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Blueboatman
Well-known member
My two h'appence worth
You say first impressions count...
Late,dark,wet cold and hungry....ie uncertainty all round...
From the companys website I see that one set of piccies shows a galley full of fresh produce.
There are no links to customer testimonials,but perhaps these are included in their brochure?
And they teach practical courses up to coastal skipper level but no further...
Perhaps,and it is only a perhaps,......if they were to offer more serious levels of tuition then by implication the calibre and experience of those doing the teaching would be great enough to defuse any customer dissatisfaction and confusion at a very early stage...
I assume that no one on board ventured to suggest a trip to Tescos ? Even when the contents of the galley were checked ? Maybe bottled water is the expected norm these days, maybe not, but the food issue seems to me a very easy one for anyone on board to have rectified...might have required a whip round and a taxi but...
It also sounds as though you learnt <some> stuff, at a price, and perhaps even 'under duress of weather'. In fact in a darkish sort of way you have learnt from experience how not to do things on your own boat in the future...It also sounds as thought in all seamanlike areas the boat and skipper were indeed up to scratch.
I can only suggest that you consider trying the same thiong again in a sunny warm climate,perhaps with a crew full of good friends and using a company personally recommended by friends.
Had the boat just been turned around from a previous charter or teaching session ?
You say first impressions count...
Late,dark,wet cold and hungry....ie uncertainty all round...
From the companys website I see that one set of piccies shows a galley full of fresh produce.
There are no links to customer testimonials,but perhaps these are included in their brochure?
And they teach practical courses up to coastal skipper level but no further...
Perhaps,and it is only a perhaps,......if they were to offer more serious levels of tuition then by implication the calibre and experience of those doing the teaching would be great enough to defuse any customer dissatisfaction and confusion at a very early stage...
I assume that no one on board ventured to suggest a trip to Tescos ? Even when the contents of the galley were checked ? Maybe bottled water is the expected norm these days, maybe not, but the food issue seems to me a very easy one for anyone on board to have rectified...might have required a whip round and a taxi but...
It also sounds as though you learnt <some> stuff, at a price, and perhaps even 'under duress of weather'. In fact in a darkish sort of way you have learnt from experience how not to do things on your own boat in the future...It also sounds as thought in all seamanlike areas the boat and skipper were indeed up to scratch.
I can only suggest that you consider trying the same thiong again in a sunny warm climate,perhaps with a crew full of good friends and using a company personally recommended by friends.
Had the boat just been turned around from a previous charter or teaching session ?
Lakesailor
New member
I've not seen this thread before (or to be more accurate, not opened it) and find it perplexing.
Is Carol a previous lurker who has joined up to alert forumites to a poor service (a mystery shopper) or someone with a grudge trying to do some commercial damage.
Two points of view seem to have arisen:
a) It's a sailing course, not a holiday
b) It's part of a service industry and should reflect high standards in everything it offers.
I tend towards b), mainly as we were involved in hospitality and dragged our B&B from nice but run-of-the-mill to top-end 4 star accommodation which drew people back again and again.
Now we provided accommodation as the thrust of our business, no training or qualifications as a main consideration.
But why can't a training organisation recognise that standards are rising and offer the whole experience?
I'm not saying that Moonfleet are bad, as painted by Carol, and other's responses would seem to indicate they are good.
But the defence offered on here that it's acceptable to rough it because it's sailing seems rather outdated.
Our own shopping trolleys would have put your examples to shame
Is Carol a previous lurker who has joined up to alert forumites to a poor service (a mystery shopper) or someone with a grudge trying to do some commercial damage.
Two points of view seem to have arisen:
a) It's a sailing course, not a holiday
b) It's part of a service industry and should reflect high standards in everything it offers.
I tend towards b), mainly as we were involved in hospitality and dragged our B&B from nice but run-of-the-mill to top-end 4 star accommodation which drew people back again and again.
Now we provided accommodation as the thrust of our business, no training or qualifications as a main consideration.
But why can't a training organisation recognise that standards are rising and offer the whole experience?
I'm not saying that Moonfleet are bad, as painted by Carol, and other's responses would seem to indicate they are good.
But the defence offered on here that it's acceptable to rough it because it's sailing seems rather outdated.
Our own shopping trolleys would have put your examples to shame
Tranona
Well-known member
I have no problem with people sharing their experiences, positive or negative. What I object to is making unsubstantiated statements in public and then effectively walking away, rather than reporting them after all avenues of redress have been explored. A good example of what I think is a useful thread of this type is the recent one on Liveaboard about a non-performing wind generator, where the poster explained his problem, asked for other peoples experiences (which were generally different from his) and then posted the outcome with the supplier.
As we know, one of the problems of these fora is that they get trawled by search engines that could pick up the name of the company and publicise the negative comments. Indeed in the case that I referred to in the MOBO forum this was the declared intention of the poster, and I understand was successful.
This is not the way to conduct business in any sphere.
As we know, one of the problems of these fora is that they get trawled by search engines that could pick up the name of the company and publicise the negative comments. Indeed in the case that I referred to in the MOBO forum this was the declared intention of the poster, and I understand was successful.
This is not the way to conduct business in any sphere.
David_Jersey
New member
Of course no one knows if OP's version of events was true or fair. But I suspect an honest opinion.
Interesting thread nonetheless about courses / experiances in general.
Interesting thread nonetheless about courses / experiances in general.
Blueboatman
Well-known member
I would really like to read about some of the other peoples experiences from this particular Cruise of the Skylark.
Why do I think we won't ?
Sartre said Hell is other people,
so not a hellish Cruise per se,just one persons impressions (so far)...
Why do I think we won't ?
Sartre said Hell is other people,
so not a hellish Cruise per se,just one persons impressions (so far)...
Heckler
Active member
yawn yawn
Giblets
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
Is Carol a previous lurker who has joined up to alert forumites to a poor service (a mystery shopper) or someone with a grudge trying to do some commercial damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
I must confess that out of 136 replys to this thread (OK, some of them drift a little and relate to the culinary exploits of some forum members /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif) Carol has only posted twice. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif even though she has been asked various questions by other posters.
In my mind this probably means one of three things:
1. She had not got the answers/comments that she was hoping to receive and has stormed off in a huff.
2. [cynical mode on] She is involved in another training organisation and is trying to rubbish a competitor. The comment "I have sailed before and been around boats for some years." may bear this out.[cynical mode off]
3. She is a troll. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Is Carol a previous lurker who has joined up to alert forumites to a poor service (a mystery shopper) or someone with a grudge trying to do some commercial damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
I must confess that out of 136 replys to this thread (OK, some of them drift a little and relate to the culinary exploits of some forum members /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif) Carol has only posted twice. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif even though she has been asked various questions by other posters.
In my mind this probably means one of three things:
1. She had not got the answers/comments that she was hoping to receive and has stormed off in a huff.
2. [cynical mode on] She is involved in another training organisation and is trying to rubbish a competitor. The comment "I have sailed before and been around boats for some years." may bear this out.[cynical mode off]
3. She is a troll. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
SirSnoozalot
New member
What is a troll?
BlueSkyNick
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
What is a troll?
[/ QUOTE ]somebody who deliberately starts conflict or an argument on the forum, sometimes with more subtlety than others.
What is a troll?
[/ QUOTE ]somebody who deliberately starts conflict or an argument on the forum, sometimes with more subtlety than others.
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