MOB recovery - wider question

[qsiv]

I think there are a number of perfect suits - for all sorts of varying conditions. In truth I suspect that more people are injured on boats than are simply lost through hypothermia or drowning.

The saying that 'there is othing worth doing in life that is without risk' is also appropriate. In order to reduce all risk from all activities is almost impossible. I doubt, for example, that every dive that you have has done has had an onsite hyperbarric chamber. Most commercial operations would have such a facility - most sports divers would rely on the rescue services to evacuate them to a facility on shore. As this would usually necessitate a helicopter transfer there is of course added risk as the helo will not keep to sea level, thus increasing the risk of narcosis. Equally every year divers are lost because the lose contact with their support craft in a tideway - that wouldnt happen if they were tethered, but most divers prefer to dive free. I've known many divers who would dive recreationally without full backup - some dive solo, some dive with a buddy but dont have a qualified dressed rescue diver on the surface - some dont even have a driver left in the boat - it's bad practice but it happens.

If you need your boat scrubbed by a diver in a well run marina, you now need a 'full' dive team, Dive master, two in the water and a rescue diver. They are only operating two feet below the surface, but that is what health and safety regs demand.

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[bigmart]

We all have to tailor the safety gear & practises we use to our situation.

Many years ago, when I first started sailing in yachts, we used to sail across channel regularly (to Cherbourg & Alderney from Christchurch) in a 22ft Fox Terrier. Safety gear amounted to some flares, Lifejackets, Harnesses & the height of sophistication an RDF. Such items as GPS was not available, Decca was way our of our price range & a VHF was a bit new fangled for us. Of course I was single then & only had myself to care about.

Nowadays I sail with my family & many other peoples families. Social pressures are much greater, with regard to my duty of care to those I sail with, & my own sense of responsibility has changed with the perspective of parenthood. Whilst good practises are a must (when I take my kids & others to sea we have the basic rule that you do not emerge from the cabin until your harness is clipped on. For example). I must confess that I sometimes wonder if we stifle our charges with too much care. Some very good character development is the result of an injection of sheer terror after some stupid act.

There is the saying that a clever man learns by his mistakes & a very clever man learns by the mistakes of others.

Like many I find it hard to be very clever all the time & the opportunity to screw up by myself hasn't done me any harm. Sometimes I just wonder if I am doing the next generation any favours by protecting them from themselves & the many adventures they may get involved in.

Martin

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: Knowledge gap

When a dinghy sailor falls in the boat falls in as well, so it's right alongside you and going nowhere.

When a yachter falls in, the boat keeps going, so there is immediate separation. If thereis some screw-up getting back to the casualty, then we start to worry about hypothermia, losing touch with them etc. That's why it should be an automatic Mayday (providing the workload permits). After all you can always cancel a Mayday if you effect a recovery.

My own (shorthanded) sequence would be.

1. Stop the boat by heaving to. If flying a spinnaker, blow it by letting go all three lines (that's why no stopper knots in spinny sheets and halyards)
2. Get lifering and danbuoy in the water
3. Make mayday call, at same time hit MOB button on GPS.
4. Get back in proximity to MOB by whatever is most effective method (sail or motor).
5. Attempt a recovery


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[extravert]

I am not going to say this is a formal definition, but sailing dingies are generally...

Small
Totally bouyant (will only sink if holed)
Unballasted
Unstable
Low freeboard

Because of these features they are generally sailed like this...

In sheltered or inland water
In smooth or slight seas (as defined meterologically)
In winds not exceding F6
Not far from land
With the cover of safety boats
Always with bouyancy aids or lifejackets
With wet or dry suits for the unstable types of dinghies, or cold water

The reasons why people falling out of dingies usually don't panic are because...

They expect it to happen
They know what to do and are well practised
They are suitably dressed
There are people around who can help
The dinghy will usually immediately capsize, and will not go sailing off leaving them on their own. Losing sight of a dinghy MOB doesn't happen often.

As you know from your diving risk assessment experience, their are two factors that you have to take into account, consequence of the incident, and probability of the incident happening. I would briefly assess MOB from yachts and dingies like this...

Dinghy MOB

probability Very high
consequence medium to low (it's still not particularly safe going for an unplanned swim in cold water, even if you expect it)


Yacht MOB

probability Very low, so low that most of will never experience it
consequence high to very high

Therefore looking at these 2 brief assessments I would say that a dinghy sailor would be foolish not to wear a bouyancy aid or go out alone in open rough sea.

Similarly I would say that a yacht sailor wearing a drysuit, EPIRB, radio, crash helmet at all times on a yacht would be being unreasonably cautious, to the point where sailing was uncomfortable and little fun. If it does happen though, raise the alarm immediately.

Looking at the statistics for water sports, yachting and motor yachting are the safest of all watersports. Deaths are extremely rare. Sea kayaking and sea windsurfing are the most dangerous. A MOB death from a yacht is a risk, and occasionally it does happen (and we should all be knowledgeable, reasonably precautious and respect the sea), but as said before, it is extremely rare.


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[charles_reed]

Re: Knowledge gap

Yes it's the way the seawater pours up through your trousers and out past your ears which is the most attractive part of foredeck work - apart from a (drysuit is best) a climbing harness onto the spi-pole lift is definitely a GOOD IDEA.
Far more effective than those ********* harnesses.

You can leave the boat and get back without too much trauma for other crew members. Glad I'm now too old for racing foredeck work.

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[Happy1]

Bigmart, although I am careful, this is almost 100% for my baby daughter, she cannot look after herself. My 16yr old son, has been guided by me through the universtity of life, I will list below what he has achieved at 16yrs, you will then see that I don not cover him in cotton wool :-

Professional Association of diving Instructors (PADI) Qualifications
1. Open water
2. Advanced open water
3. Master Scuba Diver

Additional PADI Specialist courses completed: -
4. Medic first aid (renewed Aug 2002)
5. Rescue diver
6. Multi-Level diving
7. Underwater Naturalist
8. Underwater Navigation
9. Underwater Dive Propulsion Vehicles (DPV)
10. Peak Performance Buoyancy
11. Equipment specialist
12. Underwater photographer
13. Underwater Videographer
14. Search & Recovery
15. Boat Diver
16. Drift diver
17. Night diver
18. Dry suit diver
19. Oxygen Provider
20. Powerboat distinctive speciality
21. Altitude diving
22. Nitrox diver
23. Deep diver
24. Knots for divers distinctive speciality
25. Charts and Navigation distinctive speciality
26. Research specialist (Sea snakes in Gulf of Oman UAE)

Specialist PADI Awards
Nov 2001, In recognition of being the worlds most qualified junior master scuba diver in the world
Oct 2002, In recognition of outstanding achievements in PADI system diver education

Other Qualifications :-

Diving
SSI (Scuba Schools International)
Master Diver
Century Diver
Qualified in Wellington, New Zealand

NAUI (National Association of Underwater Instructors)
Training Assistant
Qualified in Los Angeles, USA

BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club)
Sport Diver

RYA (UK Royal Yachting Association)
Powerboat 1 certification
Powerboat 2 certification
Safety Boat certification
Advanced Powerboat certification
Sailing Boats Competent Crew certification
GMDSS (VHF) Radio operator

RLSS (Royal Life Saving Society)
NPLQ Certified Pool Lifeguard
Trained at Crystal Palace Sports Centre, London

STA (Swimming Teachers Association)
NARS (National Aquatic Rescue Standard) QCA accredited NVQ
Certified Pool Lifeguard
Trained at Manor Farm Community School, Walsall, West Midlands

NARS is recognised and supported by a number of organisations. Most importantly it has international recognition and accreditation of Lifeguarding awards from the International Life Saving Federation (ILS). The qualification meets all necessary health and safety regulations - including the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, the Health and Safety Commissioners ‘Managing Health and Safety in Swimming Pools’ document. It is therefore recognised by the Health and Safety Executive. SPRITO - the Sports and Recreation Industry Training Organisation also supports the course.

Technical Qualifications
Mares trained and certified dive equipment After Sales Service Technician

He also plays rugby at County and Scottish divisional standards, and last year went to New Zealand on his own to the International Rugby Academy to study for 4 weeks. He flew back via Los Angeles and did some diving at Catalina Island, I think he is able to hold his own.

I have always ensured that he is fully prepared for what tasks he takes on, I think you will see that I have prepared him well for his future life, he is now able to keep adding to his experience in a variety of different subjects. He worked in his school holidays in internships to get the courses, so he appreciates what he has achieved as well.

I do think that between him and me ( I am an advanced diver only) we will be quite a good asset in any situation. We will have oxygen and dive gear including air cyclinders on board for emergencies.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[Happy1]

Thanks for that

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[Happy1]

Re: Knowledge gap

There must be an electronic gizmo available that could sound an alarm when no signal received from transmiter on body e.g. 20mtrs away (unless large boat). Not 20 mins later think, I'm sure I was on the boat with someone else. And I do know there are systems available to track and locate a person with a transmitter on. So where are they? I want one.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[Happy1]

OK I agree, we are getting there, SO can we have some suggestions as to a Risk assessment format for sailers, I will ask the Motor boaters seperately. e.g.

Weather check
Is my boat suitable for the inteneded passage
Do I have the right charts
Is my GPS working and loaded with the right gear
Check saftey equipment
Are the crew OK for the journey e.t.c. e.t.c.

This is just an example, but you must all go through things in your sub concious, would anyone be willing to put that on here, so we can see a selection of ideas and perhaps pick up some good points we missed.

Cheers, and thanks for expanding my knowledge

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[mike_k]

I think what you are asking is included in the SOLAS passage planning regs, that have just been introduced. From memory they ask to consider most of the things you are asking here, plus others - such as alternative ports if the intended one is unreachable/unavailable.

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[bigmart]

Re: Knowledge gap

The nearest thing I know to the device you describe is called a Sea Marshall. It is basically a personal EPIRB with another unit with a directional aerial which is carried on the boat & used to locate the casualty.

Trouble is that if you carried all the safety gear, that some say you should, your boat would be the safest because you couldn't get on it to go sailing. My little 26 footer is getting overcrowded already.

Southampton Boatshow last year I persuaded SWMBO that a handheld VHF was a must have addition to the safety gear on board. Parted with the cash, got home, whipped out my flash new toy to show SHMBO the excellent functionality of said device. She opens the instruction book & shows me the first text on the first page "NOT TO BE USED FOR SAFETY PURPOSES".

Where do I go from here.

Martin

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[Twister_Ken]

VHF safety

>shows me the first text on the first page "NOT TO BE USED FOR SAFETY PURPOSES".<

Is it a Garmin? If so, mine says exactly the same thing. I questioned them on it. They replied that it was to fight off litigation from people who might want to sue them if they fall in and find they can't whistle up a rescue helo or a lifeboat by using it.

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[Peppermint]

Remember the Liferaft

As you say the dinghy offers an option that many forget as does the liferaft.

I'm amazed at how many skippers drive the boat during man overboard drills. What if it's you. So well done with the lads.

I had a willing accomplice in much of my MOB practise. An Irish Water Spaniel called "Murphy". This dog would sleep for hours in the coiled anchor warp of my Jolly Boat. Then he'd get up and get off. He was an uncooperative recovery too, as he'd swim out of your way. I guess that wringing wet he weighed about 80 - 90 lbs. So a 150lb adult takes a bit of planning for.

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[qsiv]

I'd agree with Mike_k that these are a subset of the stautory obligation that face all who go to sea, as anounced last year.

As you say - most is subconscious - I know my boats limits (infinitely higher than mine or any crew I normally sail with). Charts are always on board, but if we were going outside our normal cruising range I' have ordered them at the beginning of the season, but I carry charts from Dover to the Scillies and down to La Rochelle as a matter of course. Safety equipment - cant say I check before each trip but the liferaft is tested every year, the gas bottle tested every 5. Lifejackets I sell and renew on a rolling basis rather than testing. Flares are replaced at the beginning of each season as required. Fuel is replenished before the boat is put away each trip - but I can carry fuel for well over a thousand miles of motoring. Then I check the separator bowls most times, and check the oil level periodically.

Water is topped up as the sail covers are taken off. I dont normally fill the tanks as I dont want to cart the excess weight around (we carry close to 1.5 tonnes if all the tanks are filled), and I prefer fresher water. At the beginning of each season a number of 5 litre bottles of mineral water are stashed in the bilges as reserves.

I tend to turn on the instruments as soon as I'm aboard - but lack of GPS doesnt rate as a safety issue in my book. It's nice if it's there, just like radar but the absence of either doesnt constitute a reason not to go to sea. Lack of log or depth would - but I carry a Walker log as a spare, and I have never known the leadline not to work.

Most importantly - for a raggie at least is to keep up the checks on the rig. As a matter of course I have a check round the rig before nightfall, and first thing after breakfast in the morning - not forgetting that binoculars are useful for checking further up the mast. We carry climbing gear to go up the mast at sea - including a helmet. Also documented on board is which size Allen key fits which rigging adjuster so that it is sometimes possible to arrive on the job with the correct size tool! I hav say that we have never needed to go up the rig at sea, for which I'm glad as our masthead is close to 90' above sealevel, and the motion even at anchor in sheltered bay can be awkward as I found last year when I had to pop up to change the anchor light in the masthead fitting ...

Theres probably more - but I havent been in boat mode for a while now, so may have missed lots!

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[bigmart]

Re: VHF safety

It was a Standard, as it happens. But there again it just shows you thee all at it.

When do you think Lifejackets & life rafts will be marked in the same way?

Martin

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[Happy1]

Re: VHF safety

Blimey I have the Garmin 725e, I would hate to be out without the correct equipment, I better check that on mine, Mine was sold to me on the pronise that it could be submerged to 1mtr for 30 mins without affecting it.

Thanks,

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[Happy1]

Well you sound safe, if you ever need a crew member PM me /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif With my satellite equipment we should have a great time.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[Happy1]

Mike I think they might be, I was just suggesting we all put our ideas down, if some people don't have the pleasure of reading all the SOLAS regulations, at least they will have got ideas from others on here.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[mike_k]

Good idea - and that way we may list obvious things that would be missed otherwise - whether or not in the regulations.

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[Happy1]

Do you want to start a new thread Mike, I think I have said a bit too much /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Time to let others have a go, I have to digest all the info that I have learnt in the last few days.

Cheers

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>