MOB recovery - wider question

[Happy1]

That is totaly daft IMHO, you have to take each situation as it comes. Don't tell me there are not situations on a nice day when you can easily recover the MOB. AND if you had been trained in the recovery of MOB and practised it you would see it can easily be done. Don't panic, assess the situation, don't lose site of the MOB, keep a finger pointing at the MOB, and go back and pick heim/her up. While faffing about calling Mayday, you could possibly have lost the MOB from line of site, any idea of where they are, keep calm. If it is a situation that you assess as a Mayday, then give it, that's what it is for, but be guided by the circumstances.

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[bigmart]

The trouble with your theory is that, you are quite right, we would all be safer if we wore dry suits whenever we went sailing, because we would be so uncomfortable,that we would never go sailing.

I for one don't spend a fortune on top quality breathing waterproofs to sweat up in my own private Turkish Bath by wearing a dry suit on a warm summers day on the South Coast. We go sailing for hours & days on end. Comfort has to be a major factor.

Martin

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[bigmart]

The point is that its never as easy as you might think to get a MOB back, & by the time you discover this, it may be too late.

A stitch in time & all that.

Martin

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[kgi]

while i agree with some of what you are saying, wearing a drybag is totally impractical, for a number of reasons, 1) you sweat your nuts off .. 2)they would be prone to getting ripped up on a sailboat 3) remember we tend to sail when the weather is nice, the temptation to have your bag unzipped is the best reason for not wearing one, over the side with it unzipped doesn't bear thinking about....all that said you said your not a sailor and whats good for a diver in a RIB is not necessarily good for ayacht, i know they use them dinghy racing but the races are normally of short duration and your sat in a completely open boat, for boats with coach roof/doghouse to hide behind, they become redundant.....keith

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[mike_k]

I am not saying you are not right - but I should think the number of people who wear a dry suit sailing all the time is very very small. And I agree about the risk assessment, being prepared and so on - no argument there !
But, it is a risk sailing (like many things) and the unexpected does happen. Nobody wants to fall in, and I am sure everyone does their best not to.

As for a MOB not being a Mayday - probably does depend on the situation - weather, conditions, crew abilities but I would think it better to be safe than sorry. And even when you get someone back on board they may still need help anyway because of cold or injury - even if wearing a drysuit.

Isn't there some saying about preparing for the worst and then hoping it doesn't happen ?


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[qsiv]

I'd agree with that - but we generate 4 tonnes of halyard tension on the Code 0 - that wold lift even my more corpulent friends! The big (ST66) electric primaries almost guarantee that the lift itself wouldnt be an issue.

We do suffer from higher freeboard though. I'd dearly like to try it in 'real' conditions (F7, rain, dark, lee shore) but - I'm just too scared, so the 'flat' water trials will have to do.

As for hypothermia - I would have agreed with you until 3 weeks ago.

At the end of January my wife jumped of St Catherines breakwater in Jersey in the middle of the night. She jumped nearly 40 feet into the water, wearing nothing but a nightdress, trousers, shoes, and a Barbour. She broke her back as she hit a boulder at the foot of the breakwater - so shock was certainly a factor. She had drunk a little wine (elevates heartrate) and a few aspirin (vasodilatory). All in all, everything against her from hypothermia point of view. She was in the water for at least 1hr 45mins before being found.

I was so surprised that she had survived (any of it, but particularly the hypothermia) that I spoke to a local lifeboatman whos is also the on board specialist medic (st Johns). He said that they had pulled someone out of the water 5 hours after immersion, and they were revived. He said that in many cases the heart rate slows so much that the effects of the cooling are ameliorated (almost suspended animation was his phrase). Indeed I recall a case of someone being rescued from UNDER river ice in Canada after some hours - not only were they successfully reheated, but they self evidently hadn't drowned.

So, for all we as sailors fear hypothermia, dont give up on it. It is worth reheating an apparently dead body (body to body heat is the preferred mechaniasm outside a hospital). Dont heat rapidly as the difference in temperature between the reheated blood and the cold core blood can easily give the casualty thermal shock. As soon as the casualty is conscious ambient temerature liquid rehydration should be started.

Thats the total of my recently gained knowledge of hypothermia. I'm quite good on spinal injury knowledge and also recovery procedures from self poisoning, but thats another story....

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[qsiv]

I'd have to disagree - there is patently a risk to life until you have the casualty on board. Most divers have either a wetsuit or drysuit, a life jacket (Ok you cal it an ABLJ or stab but serves the same purpose on the surface). Importantly you also have a mask and an air supply, and you are also not shocked to be IN the water.

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[qsiv]

As I said in a different reply the time is VERY variable, and can be many hours.

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[Happy1]

Right you lot, just listen for a moment. I DO NOT know anything about sailing, what I do know about is risk assessment and survival. Interesting to see comments that you have put on here, I guess you have not heard about breathable dry suits, and that you would rather have breathable inpracticable clothing that fails to do it's job if you fall overboard !! Are we on the same planet?

All this Mayday stuff I thought was for cold conditions, I covered both in my last post stating that if it was a ovely day and you were pottering about and somebody fell overboard with their lifejacket on, (please don't tell me you don't wear them because it spoils your tan line!!) when swimmers are swimming past in swimming trunks, you would call a Mayday, Utter total NONSENSE. THERE ARE conditions that you would put out a Mayday, but let's be sensible here, and perhaps with all of your knowledge give people some examples of when you suggest they should or should not, NOT always put out a Mayday. Circumstances dictate what action to take, if it is people new to boating who have just taken the boat out, too arrogant to undertake any training, including VHF, well that is just a shame, but perhaps they would need help, if they could operate the radio, or find it in the first place. There are on the other hand more experienced members who could cooly turn around and pick up the MOB. Getting that person on board is in fact a different matter, but plan now for it, check how you would deal with a situation like that, and explain to all your crew before starting out.

AND another thing, IF there was ANY chance of me being thrown overboard (by accident /forums/images/icons/smile.gif) I would wear the appropriate clothing. It is no good having a lovely Golden Tan on the mortitions slab really is it, with the relatives saying, I told him/her to be careful, better to be a bit sweaty and alive than brown dead. Get real, assess the situation, decide on a plan of action, practice, talk about it, be ready for it in case it is you BUT don't panic.

Safe sailing,

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[Happy1]

Are you telling me
1. You would have no life jacket on
2. You would NOT be appropriately dressed for the conditions you are in, drysuit if required.
3. You would be surprised and shocked if you fell in
4. You don't have a spray hood for your lifejacket, and what would you want an air supply for? but if conditions dictated it I would have a pony bottle (small air cylinder) and regulator on.

For goodness sake you lot, the equipment is out there, why lose life CRAZY. Get trained, stay alive EASY.

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[chriscallender]

If we go down the risk assessment road of MOB then I think we'd see that the risk of having a man overboard is less than plenty of other kinds of mayday emergenices - unscientifically I've never heard a mayday for MOB on VHF when I've been out whereas I've heard plenty of maydays for fires, hitting rocks, sinking etc. as well as plenty of complete false alarms (EPIRBs going off etc). Rescue services definitely wouldn't regard calling Mayday for a MOB as "blocking" ch 16, they would be very glad to do their job and try to save life .

Thankfully its a very rare event compared to the number of boats on the water, unfortunately also with very serious consequences if it should happen so not to be taken lightly.

The reason we all worry about it so much is that as skipper we have a lot more influence on the successful outcome than we do in other situations.

I think it would be daft for us all to wear drysuits and fleece on warm sunny days in Spring (as if such a thing exists...!) when the water is still close to its coldest. If we want to come up with technological solutions then those 121.5MHz personal EPIRBs for crew with an alarm/ directional receiver on the boat and also received by rescue aircraft seem a much more practically feasible safety measure.

In cold water (early March) I've been told by an instructor that the casualty may die from cold in 10 minutes. I'm not confident that I could have them back on board in that time (as I'll usually have been left alone!) so by definition they are in grave danger and its a Mayday thats needed... in warmer water, no wind/waves/tide, good visibility and a strong crew the situation might be slightly less immediately life threatening, but all it takes is for a paniced crew member to loose sight of the casualty and they are gone for good.

So it will always be a mayday for me, except perhaps in a marina/harbour in summer when there are plenty of people to help. No training/practice could make me 100% sure I was going to get them back on my own.

Chris

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[qsiv]

As I mentioned above - I am now sceptical abou the '10 minute' figure. I know it was only January, but the sea temperature was apparently 7.8C - thats not overly warm. I know it's a little colder further north (but we dont get the Gulf Stream, so the water here is invariably colder than it is in S Devon).

My wife was in the water for a minimum of 105 minutes, a maximum of 180. Whatever the figure actually is it is patently more than 10 mins. Added to which she had no suitable clothing on whatsoever.

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[AndrewB]

Hypothermia

I agree, the quoted survival estimates are probably a minimum and apply to someone in bad condition.

When I was about 23 I was sailing solo in a heavy old dinghy one February, no wetsuit (unusual in those days), just old oilies and thick sweaters, when I capsized. No one around. Recovered the dinghy, struggled back aboard, bailed out and rowed about ¼ mile back to shore, then stumbled a couple of hundred yards to where I was living.

No real certainty how long it took but probably around 45-60 mins with 10-15 mins in the water. I was very badly confused on coming off the water and unable to explain what had happened. Beyond the shivering stage, I could not drink a cup of tea or get in a luke-warm bath for because they felt burning hot. Took about 6 hours to warm up again. But the will to save oneself is pretty strong.


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[Happy1]

Where did you do your course, in the Antarctic? your instructor must have been right if that is where you were, 10 mins, about right for that area. Training seems to be the issue here, nobody can tel me the suggested sea survival times. A personal locator is available and used by divers, so why do sailers not use them. The MOB facility on the GPS, how many know how to use it, or have practiced. Yes, Yes, all the gear is out there, but people don't seem to care. I appreciate the summers day fleece and drysuit, and again I explained that the clothing should suit the conditions, so what would you be doing wearing that on a summer / spring day. It is your decision though and good for you if you thought it necessary wear it. Why do all crew not have a waterproof handheld VHF strapped to them, Garmin make one, I have it, waterproof to 1mtr for 30mins. Is £229 worth the price of a life? It would be good to guide the boat back, although using the MOB button on the GPS it should be pretty near to you. A 121 MiniB EPIRB, I have one, on special offer at allgadget.co.uk for £99 (normally £149), is £99 worth your life. See it goes on and on, for goodness sake, look after yourself, it is YOUR life, you only have ONE. People wear all this expensive fancy nonsense clothing made in China, but have NO CLUE about their own safety. Some sunglasses are more than an EPIRB or VHF even!!! What is it all about, there should be realtively NO chance of you getting lost with the kit available NOW /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Safe boating, with the corrcet gear

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[Guest]

10 mins is a reasonable average for water's around Scotland. People have died in under 10 min though!!! Just look at the various accident reports for the MOB's on North Sea oil rigs. It all comes down to how much body fat you have!! Women have an extra layer of fat that men don't have and generally will survive longer.
The best way to avoid a MOB situation is don't fall it, always wear a harness.

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[Happy1]

BE PREPARED IT COULD BE YOU

Don't give me any of this surprise nonsense, be prepared ALL the time, and you will not get a nasty shock if you DO fall in. Assess you kit, if you don't have the right kit go and get it, if you don't have the money, sell something and get it. YOU ONLY HAVE ONE LIFE. The kit is out there see the other post below. If you are on a boat in the water you may fall in, simple as that.

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[Happy1]

Well done, someone sensible at last. DON'T FALL IN. Use the correct kit, and if for some unknown freak of nature you DO fall in, USE the CORRECT KIT that you have prepared for that circumstance e.g. EPIRB, Handheld VHF, Torch/lifejacket light e.t.c.

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[qsiv]

There is a danger that this becomes rather too theoretical and abstract - but I am speaking from real personal experience of the issues. My parents started the first sailing school in Britain, we sailed the Atlantic when I was four. Oh - and my father was drowned when he was lost overboard - and nothing anyone has said hitherto would have made the slightest difference to his outcome (except probably a life jacket). But he was only 200 feet from the shore on a calm sunny day and not all would wear a lifejacket under those circumstances.

I'm with you all the way on staying aboard in the first instance - it is always the best solution. I do try and be good and stay clipped on whenever it's appropriate, but there are transition times and there are occasions when the wretched teather is genuinely more hindrance than help.

Unfortunately we are by definition talking about an accident. Very often the mechanism by which someone goes overboard inflicts serios injury. Sometimes it's rigging failure, sometimes it's as simple as being hit by the boom. Much less frequently does someone simply 'slip over the side'.

Many sailors dont like auto inflation jackets (they tend to go off spontaneously in rough weather). I havent seen a lifejacket that will deploy a spray hood - there is an assumption that the casualty is conscious. As for breathable suits - they do exist but they are not what people would be wearing all the time - people would suffer from dehydration and overheating. They are also very cumbersome and bulky - and at close to £1000 not in every recreational sailors budget. Yes I do have one, but it only gets warn when the conditions are truly awful.

Of course I would be surprsised and shocked.

As for tan lines - the usual raggie tan is face, forearms and legs below short height. Sailing boats tend to make imperfect sun tan platforms in comparison to motor boats.

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[chriscallender]

Would you also wear a hard hat at all times in case an accidental gybe knocked you overboard? What safety gear do you need to be carrying on your person for all the many other marine emergencies that might occur to you?. Perhaps you could post a list and we can all add ideas to it.

My point is that we could always carry more gear and theoretically it would make life safer - except that if this is persued to the extreme the boat sinks due to the extra weight and most of it is used so rarely that it will not work when it is finally needed.

Clipping on is simple and in my opinion much more important than any of this extra gear if you want to avoid becoming a casualty statistic. Safety is much more about doing simple things like this than spending $$$ on breathable drysuits, pony bottles, hard hats etc. Just like you put a seatbelt on in a car rather than wear a motorcycle crash helmet. Chandlers would perfer us to go down the "safety = equipment" route I suspect!

Chris

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[Happy1]

Well let's look on the positive side here, at least more people are wearing lifejackets, and that MUST be a good thing, and we have had a discussion here that will let people make up their own minds, that is there choice, we can do more more. It can be seen that people have different views, but that is what is so special about this forum and the nice people on it, an opportunity to exchange ideas and experiences (whether it be from diving, flying, life, occupation e.t.c.).

Safe Boating.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>