MOB recovery - wider question

[snowleopard]

thought i'd widen the discussion on recovery slings...

have you a MOB recovery plan (i.e. to get them back on board)?

have you tried it out?

have you ever done it in anger?

what device(s) do you rely on?

we have a lifesling plus a snatch block permanently on the end of the boom to which the lifesling's line can be led to a winch. we have the advantage of a rigid boom similar to the aerorig. we tried it in a marina and successfully got a crewman back aboard. reluctant to try it out at sea because of the risk of injury.

other devices i am aware of are parbuckle & jon buoy. the only one i have seen used was a form of parbuckle used to lift a corpse out of the thames into a police launch (nice start to a day in the office!).

the casualty in last year's ARC slipped through the lifelines while wearing a harness and was still conscious afterwards. he died while his brother was getting the sails down to stop the boat. the brother could not get him back aboard.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Happy1]

VERY, VERY sensible question. I have my action plan ready for my little boat, but I have a three step boarding / swim ladder, some don't. If you have someone overboard with wet heavy clothes it could be a nightmare for a more slightly built person to get them back on. MOB should not be underestimated, you just want to know that if it does happen, you have plan. IF you are able to practice it so much the better. Even the coldness of the water can affect the clear thinking of the MOB, you may find that when attempting recovery, they just panic and will not listen, be prepared for that as well so it does not come as a surprise. There is a book on Sea survival by the RYA, it is cheap but gives goood hints for sustaining your life that bit longer.

Perhaps some HONEST examples of MOB experiences, and what things they would do different now would be appreciated by others who have been lucky enough to have avoided it so far, but don't be complacent, could be you next!!

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[gjeffery]

Has anybody given thought to using a scramble net to aid MOB recovery? A rectangular net, with 4 inch mesh, would be light, substitute for a latter and could be easier to use as a parbuckle than a jib or triangular cloth.

Cargo nets might be suitable and available from surplus stores.

Any thoughts.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[gjeffery]

Has anybody given thought to using a scramble net to aid MOB recovery? A rectangular net, with 4 inch mesh, would be light, substitute for a ladder and could be easier to use as a parbuckle than a jib or triangular cloth.

Cargo nets might be suitable and available from surplus stores.

Any thoughts.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[TheBoatman]

The problem with cargo nets is that to be of any use they have to be made of large dia rope, which is difficult to stow and if the rope is to thin then when its slung over the side its to close to the hull and you can't get your feet in it.
The most important thing to remember about MOB is to make contact a.s.a.p. Once contact is made you then have a number of ways of getting them out, but you are right in saying that having a plan is going a long way to solving the problem.
Parbuckles normally only work on power boats and are not good if the MOB has a neck/head injury.
Boarding ladders have to be the best solution if the MOB is not injured.
Any sling rigged to a spare halyard and winch is good. I would guess that even using the spinny halyard would work because most masts are taller than the boat is longer and after all it doesn't matter where the MOB comes over the rail so long as he/she does.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[qsiv]

Yes,Yes,NO ..
I have reservations about lifting from the boom end.

Firstly the boom has to be trimmed fwd, to get the aft end clear of the rail, using a preventer, and locked off so it is static.

The problem now is that the lifting point is a long way aft, so pitching motion will be exacerbated. Just to add interest - on our boat the boom end coincides nicely with the location of the prop. Furthermore I couldnt guarantee that we could lift a person over the rails without his head meeting the boom or his feet entangling the guardwires. This implies you need two people on deck to help - one to ease the preventer.foreguy, one to take up the sheet, possibly another to feed the casualty over the rails. The plus is that the casualty is delivered to the cockpit - the added danger is having 200lb swinging from the boom end while you do it.

I rely on using one of the two spinaker halyards, and I'd bring thema aboard by the shrouds. The halyard could be led either to an electric winch, or it could be hoisted with a watch tackle, and the tackle used, or one of the mast winches could be used.

The motion in way of the shrouds (all of pitch,roll and yaw) would be minimised, the natural lead of the halyard would both lift up and over the guardrails, and you do at least have the casualty where there is some space, although you would nhave to get them aft - unless you used the halyard to drop them through the forehatch.

All boats are different, and what is right for one wouldnt necessarily work on another - but I do dislike the potential accelerations at the boom end in rough weather. Perhaps the best thing would be to drop all sail in say F6, then crawl out to the boom end to try it ..

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Twister_Ken]

Spinny halyard

Just make sure that the halyard is long enough to reach down the waterline, with enough slack at the shackle to allow the casualty to be clipped on, and enough slack at the mast to allow turns to be got on to a winch.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[kgi]

I was on an MOD sail training boat once and we decided to do some MOB exercises, we were just off Torquay the sea was reasonably flat, with about fifteen knots of wind, we had a volunteer jump over the side and we proceeded to pick him up using the horse shoe lifering mounted on the pushpit, we had a crew of eight so most of it was mandraulic and we simply dragged him over the gaurdrail, on this practice he was helping himself, and we didn't realise how much easier it was until we did a disabled/unconcious rescue what a bloody nightmare!!!! the casualty played his part perfectly he just hung in the water with a big grin on his face, realising that he was going to do nothing to help himself we positioned the boat right alongside him, we could get hold of his shirt but couldn't lift him because of his weight/waterlogged condition, we tried to get a rope around him but with the boats freeboard and the boat gently rolling from side to side, we couldnt hold on to him, in the end we decided to put another man in the water with a lifeline on and a partly inflated lifejacket (partly inflated to aid in his manouverability), by this time the "casualties" grin was fading and he was really starting to feel the cold, once the man in the water had passed a line round him it was fairly easy four of us took the strain , manhandled him over the rail and the casualty was on board. Yes we had a boarding ladder, we opted not to use it because off the proximity of the prop, the other thing that tends to happen in these situations is rope tails tend todisappear overthe side and in all the toing and froing trying toget a casualty back on board they invariably develop an attraction for the prop, the other consideration was with the stern lifting up and down so much you might brain the casualty....conclusions we came to was its best not to go over the side in the first place, yes i know its easier said than done, but in reality how many of us wear our harnesses? Example winter sailing in the solent, would you wear a harness? most of us would not and its because no one else is wearing theirs, and none of us want to be thought of as "soft" do we? !!!..........keith....ps i am just as bad as the rest of us, my harness hasn,t been out of the locker for ages....why? because no one else has got one on.....

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[graham]

On boats less than about 26 ft the halyards ,winches etc are unlikely to be strong enough .

Fortunately the freeboard is likely to be lower (not allways true).One important point is to have the guard wires easily removable.Pulling a fully clothed person through or over them is virtually impossible.

If you use a cargo net or similar to roll them aboard remember the bottom edge needs weighting to make it sink and the attatchment points have to incredibly strong.I think stanchion bases "should" be ok but check the load under the deck is spread out with large backing pads and washers.

Whatever method you use it is important to try it out .

Another point is to send a Mayday immediately the person goes in if possible.If you recover them safely in 5 minutes no one will mind when you cancel the mayday.

Even in summer hypothermia and shock will set in within minutes of falling in.Also the strain on the victims heart is dangerous.

The sea temp around the UK lags behind the air temp .So the sea is coldest around March ,just as many people start the new sailing season.

Just read the post above,8 presumably fit young crew struggling puts it into perspective . If you have a liferaft it could be the answer to launch the raft tether it alongside and get them in there first.

 

[Spacewaist]

Been there with a Jonbuoy

Until you've done it for real......there's nothing in recovering a fender in the Solent that prepares you for this.

I lost a fit 27 year-old over the side off Barfleur, running down to Carentan 7-8kts under a big spinnaker (42ft yacht) in about 15-20 kts true wind-with-tide. Relatively benign seas. Spinnaker had wrapped, she was standing outside the sheet....when the spinnaker filled she was history.

She hung on to the sheet. In order to reach her we hardened up onto a fetch and wound the sheet. We just went faster and towards the rocks. Might have recovered her if we had simply blanketed the spinnaker behind the main - we'll never know.

Once she let go we threw all sorts of things over board. Warps, fenders Lifebuoys etc. Eventually we remembered the Jonbuoy. Fortunately she was conscious and able to swim to it. By the time we had doused the kite and turned round and were under power we were probably more than a mile away; the Jonbuoy looked tiny to us. Imagine how we looked to her?

Recovery was then a doddle - there's a strap off the top of the Jonbuoy which you can reach over the side (high freeboard) and then attach to lifting tackle or a halyard. (In practice there not much that's high in the rigging to attach a block to and give room to raise the JonBuoy on board so a halyard is normally the answer.)

Lessons?

1 This was a sunny April weekend. She was hypothermic and past shivering when we recovered her (took about 15-20 mins?).

2 Once aboard, I let her stand up an walk down below (Arggh!) but did the rest of the First Aid bit OK I think - took her a good 12 hours to recover (but she is still an active sailor!)

3 Getting on the Jonbuoy was easier than it looks. I am glad she was conscious and could swim.

4 The Jonbuoy stands some way out of the water and although weighted does drift in 15-20 knots of wind. She struggled to reach it.

5 You have to carry spare gas cannister - and know how to repack them - otherwise you cant reuse it till you're home. (They did give us video instructions but I dont have a TV on board)

6 Wouldnt go to sea without it.

PS We were fully crewed in this Barfleur incident. I have talked to "Her Below" about the ARC incident. There's so much we dont know about it. When short handed we have always said that if the person is still attached we'll simply heave to. Dont really have enough facts - save that Her Below is of the view that if I had gone over the side in similar conditions I, too, would probably have drowned.

<hr width=100% size=1>A pontification from the Panjandrum of orotund bloviation AD2002

 

[Happy1]

Interesting, how about some time calculations for survival in cold waters (including UK waters) may be interesting to see how quick you can pop your clogs. May make rescuers panic if they know they only have so long to get you out before you are brown bread.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[deckham]

I went overboard from a dinghy on a large lake in a mixed dinghy/cruiser race in a F6, gusting more, with quite big waves.(for a lake). I was swept away from the dinghy and picked up by a yacht, motoring. As I grabbed the boarding ladder on the stern my legs swung up underneath the transom. I had the prescence of mind to call up `are you in neutral ?`before doing this but I wonder whether designers could manage to make sure that even if you were rescued in this way you could be practically certain your feet were out of the mangle even if the rescuing yacht was still in gear.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Happy1]

I don't agree with the Mayday calling idea. I am a diver and I am in the water all of the time, so what is the difference, maybe, just maybe you are not wearing the right clothing. May I suggest that if it is that cold you get a drysuit with a fleece undersuit, and wear a life jacket rather than calling mayday all day long. Can you imagine if everyone called mayday each time a diver went in the water, nonsense IMHO. Dress for the conditions and you will survive, as long as the people you have left behind on the boat know what they are doing and trained in MOB drills, but there are plenty of course about to learn from. Leave the Mayday call for the proper occassions, this is taught on your VHF course which I take it you have done?

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[bigmart]

I was once told that the majority(something like 85-90%) of MOB's in the Ocean Youth Club were in force 3 or less winds.

Makes you realise that the best plan is not to go over in the first place. One presumes that the high numbers of MOB's in light airs must be because people are more careless on bright , nice sunny days.

Having tried MOB recovery in very light airs I would not fancy my chances of survival in anything above a force 2, rescue plan or not.

Now that I do find frightening.

Martin

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Happy1]

There is something called prop guard, it cages the prop. I looked at them they are around £100 - £150, perhaps good for dive vessels but not for me.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[graham]

I dont know the exact time figures .It depends on a lot of factors.A fit person is not neccessarily better of due to the insulating effect of body fat.

In uk its minutes not hours ,hence the need for an immediate mayday even if you thinkyou can recover them quickly.

Re happy 1 suggestion that it is not a Mayday situation if the casualty was wearing a fleece huggy bear suit inside a dry suit and was allready safely alongside the boat I would agree . In all other situations you are making a bad comparison.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by graham on 19/02/2003 15:15 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[mike_k]

Isn't there a world of difference between a diver going into the water - which he is expecting to happen, and someone sailing normally who unexpectedly goes overboard ?
Maydays are for those in 'grave and imminent danger' - I would have thought someone in the water likely to die of hypothermia in less than an hour would fit this category

And as for dressing - do you always sail in a drysuit regardles of the conditions ? Do you think this should be made a mandatory condition for sailing ? That would be the only way to make sure people are 'suitably' dressed at all times in case they go MOB. IMHO !

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Spacewaist]

Think Grumpy1 was a more accurate moniker nm

c

<hr width=100% size=1>A pontification from the Panjandrum of orotund bloviation AD2002

 

[bigmart]

I can tell you that you would not get any argument from the RYA. It doesn't matter what the books say. If someone falls overboard call Mayday immediately.

Martin

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Happy1]

This is only IMHO, I am not a sailer, but it does make me think, what the hell are you lot doing if you have to shout Mayday when you fall in the water? Try to reverse the scenario and prevent it, I did and that is why I came up with the drysuit question, and WHY do you not all go around in drysuits then, better than blocking the MAYDAY channel with calls because you 'fell in unprepared'. If you are in conditions that mean you could die with cold then can you imagine what the Health & Safety would have to say about that, your near miss book would be filled every day!! Do a risk assessment and deal with it that way. If you were in 'grave and imminent danger' woulddn't be nice to know you at least did your best to prevent getting into that situation in the first place and that it was now MAYDAY time. Planning and Preperation prevents poor performance e.g. wear the correct gear, you never know it may become 'trendy' to wear the correct equipment for the conditions /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>